How do I build a near-space life support system for insects?

[11JRidding]

They won't mind.

You don't know that

[Sillychris]

YOu could use one of those thermal heat packs for your winter gloves to stop the ants from freezing. Real cheap. I always keep a couple in my backpack for emergencies (they usually get used for thawing beer... which is a type of emergency)

https://www.google.ca/search?q=heat+packs&espv=210&es_sm=122&tbm=isch&imgil=l2yW9d8OtzRooM%253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fencrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcRUQ5z0FgGznn-ZTXmSO1n5RPmgnC6tvYdz5PIgxmkTbcnZfdOO%253B600%253B400%253BXpSqV78K4furMM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.webbikeworld.com%25252Fmotorcycle-accessories%25252F2009%25252F2009-powersports-dealer-expo-page-8.htm&source=iu&usg=__tliL__AIhm2t1kdebiaZNFa2nOQ%3D&sa=X&ei=NAceU5DEMajcyQH-8IDYBA&ved=0CDQQ9QEwAA&biw=1364&bih=683#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=l2yW9d8OtzRooM%253A%3BXpSqV78K4furMM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.webbikeworld.com%252Fmotorcycle-accessories%252F2009%252Fheat-packs.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.webbikeworld.com%252Fmotorcycle-accessories%252F2009%252F2009-powersports-dealer-expo-page-8.htm%3B600%3B400

[lajoswinkler]

You don't know that

Actually I do. I'm a huge ant that got conscious after an experiment went wrong. I can assure you no ants mind being killed by chemical vapors.

[TheDataMiner]

Thank you for all your help so far! The plans for this are already coming together!

In addition to this experiment, I will also be using an altimeter, reusing the GoPro to record continuous HD video of the horizon, using a camera taking birds eye view shots of the ground, internal and external temperature sensors, and exposing seed packets to space to see how the radiation has affected them.

Can you think of any other, light, cheap and small experiments?

Thanks!

[Scotius]

You can make some Jell-o and send it up there After landing you could check if taste and texture are different than before the flight. It would be almost like real world equivalent of sending Mystery Goo into space.

[TheDataMiner]

You can make some Jell-o and send it up there After landing you could check if taste and texture are different than before the flight. It would be almost like real world equivalent of sending Mystery Goo into space.

The air pockets inside would probably expand and maybe explode and when it landed it probably look a whole lot like mystery goo.

[Skyler4856]

I would recommend having the parachute deployed on launch. Similar to this http://www.parabolicarc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/World-View-Capsule-Balloon_241012.jpg

[TheDataMiner]

I would recommend having the parachute deployed on launch. Similar to this http://www.parabolicarc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/World-View-Capsule-Balloon_241012.jpg

Remember, I've already done this, I know how to launch these things, but thanks anyway!

[Camacha]

Actually I do. I'm a huge ant that got conscious after an experiment went wrong. I can assure you no ants mind being killed by chemical vapors.

Some basic respect for life suits any human being - that includes the human beings that think they are giant ants.

No animal wants to be killed for no reason - no animal wants to be killed. If they would, they would have long gone extinct. They might not have a rationalised opinion about it, but that does not matter, as you can apply your human reason and common sense.

[lajoswinkler]

Some basic respect for life suits any human being - that includes the human beings that think they are giant ants.

No animal wants to be killed for no reason - no animal wants to be killed. If they would, they would have long gone extinct. They might not have a rationalised opinion about it, but that does not matter, as you can apply your human reason and common sense.

Ants do not "want" anything. They have no reason. They also do not feel pain and suffering. An ant's struggle is just a bit more than a struggling of a tardigrade or any other tiny multicell animal. No brains.

One could argue about the purpose of the killing - it's to preserve them. Or the motive of the one killing them. If you aren't killing them for your own sadistic satisfaction, there is no problem.

No pain, no suffering, no species endangerment, no sadistic approach. So where is the problem? If you wash your hands and use pesticides, you're killing countless bacteria, eucaryota and insects.

[Scotius]

Actually ants are surprisingly intelligent. And communicative. They broadcast their fear and distress, and their sisters understand it and react appropriately. They might not be on level with higher organisms - but they observe their surroundings, react to changes and have self-preservation instinct. Ant will avoid water, fire or spilled chemicals, just like a mammal would do - that means their bodies and nervous systems are capable of recognising threats. Is it pain? I don't know - but i wont crush an ant to watch her writhe on the ground, because someone said death is painless for her. Besides, even if ants are mindless we are not. We should be capable of empathy and respect for other lifeforms - if we are not, it's a bad sign.

[astropapi1]

Could we please discuss how it will be done, instead of if he's going to kill the insects or not?

TheDataMiner, how long does one of those things drift apart from the launch site when it lands?

[Camacha]

Ants do not "want" anything. They have no reason. They also do not feel pain and suffering. An ant's struggle is just a bit more than a struggling of a tardigrade or any other tiny multicell animal. No brains.

One could argue about the purpose of the killing - it's to preserve them. Or the motive of the one killing them. If you aren't killing them for your own sadistic satisfaction, there is no problem.

You are mistaking a lack of intelligence for a lack of desire. Ants obviously do not have the former, but do posses the latter. Which means they have not only a desire to eat, but also survive. Most non-single celled animals will flee or try to get away when you hurt (or the equivalent thereof) them and the ant is one of them. This is an indication of a desire to stay alive and means they can almost certainly feel pain of discomfort.

I am not sure where you would get the illusion that ants have no brains. Why would they not? Do not justify your lack of compassion with a lack of knowledge.

One could argue about the purpose of the killing - it's to preserve them. Or the motive of the one killing them. If you aren't killing them for your own sadistic satisfaction, there is no problem.

No pain, no suffering, no species endangerment, no sadistic approach. So where is the problem?

That is actually a pretty scary line of thinking. I do not need to explain that sadistic intentions do not change anything for the subject. Killing humans without sadistic intentions is generally also considered undesirable, right? Killing animals painlessly or without endangerment is also a fairly weak argument if it is without a decent reason such as sustenance. When we lack the compassion to live and let live, we become a very nasty species indeed.

Could we please discuss how it will be done, instead of if he's going to kill the insects or not?

It is integral to the discussion.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Camacha

[TheDataMiner]

Could we please discuss how it will be done, instead of if he's going to kill the insects or not?

TheDataMiner, how long does one of those things drift apart from the launch site when it lands?

It depends on the wind conditions, but according to my launch predictor 80-100 km is the average.

It will also launch and land in the Arizona desert, I'm sure that makes a difference.

[TheDataMiner]

You are mistaking a lack of intelligence for a lack of desire. Ants obviously do not have the former, but do posses the latter. Which means they have not only a desire to eat, but also survive. Most non-single celled animals will flee or try to get away when you hurt them and the ant is one of them. This is an indication of a desire to stay alive and means they can almost certainly feel pain of discomfort.

I am not sure where you would get the illusion that ants have no brains. Why would they not? Do not justify your lack of compassion with a lack of knowledge.

https://taxo4254.wikispaces.com/file/view/proatta_butteli(3).jpg/464368132/767x341/proatta_butteli(3).jpg

That is actually a pretty scary line of thinking. I do not need to explain that sadistic intentions do not change anything for the subject. Killing humans without sadistic intentions is generally also considered undesirable, right? Killing animals painlessly or without endangerment is also a fairly weak argument if it is without a decent reason such as sustenance. When we lack the compassion to live and let live, we become a very nasty species indeed.

It is integral to the discussion.

Please, don't derail the thread with ethical discussions about killing ants, I won't rule out preserving them yet, but it is unlikely I will.

What I am most likely to do though, is put them in an ant farm and run an experiment where I have a control to compare their behavior and effectiveness at various tasks.

[Duxwing]

All this talk of bugs and killing will give me nightmares >_>.

My Solution - A small soda bottle wrapped in paper and half-full of hot, wet dirt should suffice.

Jeb's Solution - A Mk2 Command Pod with docked Lab, Materials Bay, Mystery Goo, 2HOT, Presmat, Double-C, and GRAVMAX--all lifted on a hexagonal asparagus of seven Common Booster Cores.

-Duxwing

[Camacha]

Please, don't derail the thread with ethical discussions about killing ants, I won't rule out preserving them yet, but it is unlikely I will.

It is not derailing for reasons explained, but as you were asking for a life support system I was kind of assuming you were intested in the well-being of the ants

What I am most likely to do though, is put them in an ant farm and run an experiment where I have a control to compare their behavior and effectiveness at various tasks.

Actually, that is a pretty good idea. Observing the little spacefarers should be interesting, as returning alive is not necessarily the same as returning well.

[User Unrelated]

You should buy the smallest video camera you can (they make some REALLY small, and cheap!)

then supply some lighting (via an LED, and some button cell batteries?), so you can observe the insects and document any changes in behavior. (put the camera INSIDE the container somehow)

And common guys... I'm sure all of you have stepped on ants in your lifetime, be it on purpose, or by accident (You surely wouldn't see every single ant that crosses your path)

so let's cool it on the ethics stuff.

I could understand if he was planning on launching something like a squirrel, but hey, ants.

and no "Bu-bu-but it's the same thing!"

no.

Edited March 11, 2014 by User Unrelated

[Scotius]

I have a cunning plan! Instead of loveable ants send cockroaches. Or fly larvae. If they survive you could perform another experiment: let them pupate, and see if adult flies will show any changes compared to control group.

[lajoswinkler]

Actually ants are surprisingly intelligent. And communicative. They broadcast their fear and distress, and their sisters understand it and react appropriately. They might not be on level with higher organisms - but they observe their surroundings, react to changes and have self-preservation instinct. Ant will avoid water, fire or spilled chemicals, just like a mammal would do - that means their bodies and nervous systems are capable of recognising threats. Is it pain? I don't know - but i wont crush an ant to watch her writhe on the ground, because someone said death is painless for her. Besides, even if ants are mindless we are not. We should be capable of empathy and respect for other lifeforms - if we are not, it's a bad sign.

Ant is not intelligent. Ant hive has a small degree of intelligence. The behaviour of the hive exibits a higher level of action, as an emergent phenomenon.

It's sort of like Borg, only without instant wireless, they use slow chemical vapor communication.

They do not feel pain and suffering because they don't have a central processing unit capable of doing so. Ant's response to destructive stimulus is de facto just like the response from fresh frog legs when stimulated chemically or by applying voltage, with very small additional delocalized processing done by ganglia.

Just because something reacts doesn't mean it processes the data in such manner that it triggers discomfort. Being able to sense stuff is not equivalent to being able to suffer.

Discomfort, pain and suffering are things applicable to higher organisms. Reptiles, birds, mammals, etc.

I do not kill ants because I feel like killing ants. I don't have such urges and I do feel empathy. When I see an ant hill, I won't step on it. I won't crush an ant to see it wriggle around, it would be a bad thing to do. There is no need for me to step on it and I do not want to do it.

You are mistaking a lack of intelligence for a lack of desire. Ants obviously do not have the former, but do posses the latter. Which means they have not only a desire to eat, but also survive. Most non-single celled animals will flee or try to get away when you hurt (or the equivalent thereof) them and the ant is one of them. This is an indication of a desire to stay alive and means they can almost certainly feel pain of discomfort.

I am not sure where you would get the illusion that ants have no brains. Why would they not? Do not justify your lack of compassion with a lack of knowledge.

https://taxo4254.wikispaces.com/file/view/proatta_butteli(3).jpg/464368132/767x341/proatta_butteli(3).jpg

That is actually a pretty scary line of thinking. I do not need to explain that sadistic intentions do not change anything for the subject. Killing humans without sadistic intentions is generally also considered undesirable, right? Killing animals painlessly or without endangerment is also a fairly weak argument if it is without a decent reason such as sustenance. When we lack the compassion to live and let live, we become a very nasty species indeed.

It is integral to the discussion.

Lack of compassion? It's an ant. It's not a deer or a cat.

Ants can't feel pain because they lack the neural infrastructure for such things. No sings of nociceptors, either. No central processing units. Paramecium also flees from danger. It's a single cell, but its surface has protein machines which mimic higher order systems. However it does not feel pain and it does not suffer, which a higher things than pain. Lack of knowledge? I don't think so.

Ants do not have brains. They have ganglia - neural nods. The difference between ganglia and a brain is immense. The blueprint you gave is not correct. Here is a more correct one.

Killing humans is not an applicable comparison. Humans have the most developed brain of all animals capable of complex, abstract thoughts. The degree of suffering in a human is uncomparable to the degree of suffering even to a chimp's, for example.

Please, don't derail the thread with ethical discussions about killing ants, I won't rule out preserving them yet, but it is unlikely I will.

What I am most likely to do though, is put them in an ant farm and run an experiment where I have a control to compare their behavior and effectiveness at various tasks.

I'm sorry if I've contributed to any derailing. I just needed to explain some stuff.

That is actually a very good idea. You can later preserve at least some of them.

I have a cunning plan! Instead of loveable ants send cockroaches. Or fly larvae. If they survive you could perform another experiment: let them pupate, and see if adult flies will show any changes compared to control group.

Cockroaches have more developed neural systems than ants. However, they also lack nociceptors and brains.

But I must comment this further. Being "loveable" is never an argument. It might pass under noninformed compassion based on our empathy, but that doesn't change anything for the subject.

There are some disgusting animals out there which not only feel pain, but have decently rendered thoughts. Being disgusting isn't an excuse to be applicable for killing.

Edited March 11, 2014 by lajoswinkler

[acrain116]

If you send up a cockroach, it'll be a free project since they ae impossible to kill

On a serious note, this experiment sounds awesome and I would love to see how the little guys enjoy their flight