Sugar Rockets

[Comrade Jenkens]

So I've seen the vids on youtube and I'm wondering if anyone on here has made them? I'm thinking of trying it myself.

[MaxxQ]

So I've seen the vids on youtube and I'm wondering if anyone on here has made them? I'm thinking of trying it myself.

I haven't done it myself, but I've known some people who have. It's a bit dangerous, since during the process of heating the sugar to melt it, if you go too hot by just a few degrees, or heat it for too long, you can end with a fire at best, and a small explosion at worst.

If you're just considering building and flying rockets, you might want to consider model and/or high-power rocketry. These are considered hobby rocketry, unlike sugar rockets (and other materials) which are considered amateur rocketry, which has quite a bit more in the way of regulations and restrictions as opposed to hobby rocketry. Also, the motors used for hobby rocketry, black powder and ammonium perchlorate composite propellant (APCP - very similar in compostion to that used in the space shuttle SRBs) have better isp than equivalent-size sugar motors, and are generally cheaper than the initial costs of setting up to do sugar motors. BP motors are pretty much exclusively for the model rocketry side and range in size from 13mm (diameter) x 1.25 inch (length) - yes we mix measurement systems here - to 24mm 3.5 inches. APCP is used in both model and high-power rockets, and range from small 18mm motors (length can vary, depending on what is needed) up to 98mm (dia.) x 3 feet or more in length. All BP motors are single-use. Some APCP motors are single-use, and there are several makers of reloadable casings for Aerotech reload propellant grains (I think there are other makers of propellant as well - it's been awhile). Reload casing have a bit of a high initial outlay in funds, but over a few flights, the casings pretty much pay for themselves, since the grains are cheaper than their single-use equivalents. The downside is the after flight cleaning, but gun barrel cleaners (such as Hoppes) makes it a bit easier.

There's a couple of links I've posted in this thread: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/68630-Video-Wednesdays-Jeb-Takes-a-Trip ... regarding the two US hobby rocketry rocketry organizations. These are a good place to start if you're looking for more information. If you're not in the US, either of those sites should have links to branch groups from outside the US.

Lastly, here's an example of how far you can go with hobby rocketry (and that's not considered a very big rocket on the high-power side of the hobby): http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/4491-Put-a-Face-to-the-name?p=1010789&viewfull=1#post1010789 The small rocket on the table between the two trophies is mine as well. One trophy was for best of show (the Little Joe II - the big one), and the other was for best scale rocket (the Pershing 1A, since they couldn't give me two trophies for the same rocket).

[Firov]

I assume you're talking about KNO3/Sugar rockets, AKA candy rockets?

I made a rocket powered by a "G" class KNO3/sugar engine for my senior project in high school, in 2006. It worked remarkably well, considering that I didn't really have any experience with model rocketry outside of Estes up to that point. I basically had to conduct my own crash research and development program to develop the fuel, casting method, igniter, motor, and rocket body. Now that I think about it, I'm kind of amazed my instructors, or the school board, approved that project.

Anyway, what are you thinking of making the rocket casing out of? Metal? Or are you going for a disposable, but more easily constructed, design such as a PVC casing with a graphite nozzle? If you have access to a machine shop, or wouldn't mind contracting out to one, I'd suggest you go with the metal design since it's reusable.

I used low carbon steel (AISI 1018) for the nozzle and forward bulkhead and electrical metallic tubing for the motor casing. I don't remember what I used for the bulkhead screws, but I do remember ensuring that it had a lower shear limit than the EMT casing, which would result in an axial explosion (up/down) rather than a radial explosion (pipe bomb) in the event of an over-pressure failure.

Anyway, take a look at the following link. It's a site run by Richard Nakka that I discovered towards the end of my project. He's about the closest thing to an expert on KNO3/sugar fuel you'll find. I'd suggest taking a close look at the A-100M rocket motor design and test data on there too. It's an excellent starting point for making your own KNO3/sugar rocket motors. Plus, when you're getting started with these, you really don't want to jump straight into a large motor. It takes time and practice to perfect your methods for casting fuel grains into the motor casing. Another benefit is that, as a metal motor, it's basically infinitely reusable and that fact combined with the low cost of the key ingredients (powdered sugar and potassium nitrate, as a minimum) means that it's very easy on your budget to fly these.

http://www.nakka-rocketry.net/

Finally, I would be very careful with the fuel mixture when you're casting it. While it might be called "candy rocket fuel", it's not something to be trifled with. That said, as long as you're careful you're not going to blow up a city block with this stuff. It's designed to burn. Not explode. Even if you dope it with red iron oxide it's still relatively slow burning. Furthermore, there are fuel casting methods that are designed to reduce the ignition risks until the very final stages of fuel casting, and even without those methods it takes a lot more than going over the correct temperature by "a few degrees" to ignite. Just be careful, take it slow, and consult with Richard Nakka's site early and often.

Finally, if all of that sounds too much, consider the commercial motor route. It's going to be more expensive in the long term, since you'll be dependent on mostly disposable motors and proprietary fuel grains, but there's no faster, or easier, way to launch rockets.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Firov

[Othuyeg]

I urge not to make any pyrotechnics or explosives at home and remember to abide by your local laws. I happend to have seen alot of people who have messed around with explosives and got hurt. Explosives will not forgive you for a beginners mistake, they will take your arm or your life just as they would take one on a battlefield. This is because I have served as an explosive explosive ordnance disposal technician.

My word of advice is if you do decide to make something like this, do it only after having gone through every safety precaution twice. And then remember that if something goes wrong, one of the most likely things to go wrong is that the mixture catches fire and the burning gasses build up under the melting mixture and spray super hot goo all over the place, possibly igniting clothing etc.

[Comrade Jenkens]

I'm going for the home made approach rather than purchasing a model hobby rocket simply because I enjoy the challenge of building things. I'm going for disposable rolled card rockets to start off with and have simply decided on KNO3/sugar as the fuel because of its low cost. I have no current experience at building them but I am studying engineering at university and have worked building submarines. I also have a good workshop to build things in.

I plan to take all the safety precautions while handling rocket fuel and can only make very small amounts due to UK laws only allowing tiny model rockets.

Edit: Ok turns out its completely illegal to make solid fuel motors in the UK. If I try i'll probably just end up with special forces coming through the door.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Comrade Jenkens

[MaxxQ]

I'm going for the home made approach rather than purchasing a model hobby rocket simply because I enjoy the challenge of building things. I'm going for disposable rolled card rockets to start off with and have simply decided on KNO3/sugar as the fuel because of its low cost. I have no current experience at building them but I am studying engineering at university and have worked building submarines. I also have a good workshop to build things in.

I plan to take all the safety precautions while handling rocket fuel and can only make very small amounts due to UK laws only allowing tiny model rockets.

<shrug> That's fine. Nothing I'd ever want to mess with, though. Good luck, and if you could, keep a photo diary, because I'd love to see your progress and eventual success.

Also, in case you've never seen or heard of it, you might want to check out the film October Sky. It's the true story of Homer Hickam, who grew up in a dying West Virginia coal mining town. He witnessed Sputnik flying overhead back in October, 1957, which inspired him to build his own rockets in high school. He eventually went on to work for NASA. The movie is based on his autobiography, Rocket Boys, which, interestingly enough, the movie title is an anagram of. The movie isn't a bad adaptation.

[Firov]

I'm going for the home made approach rather than purchasing a model hobby rocket simply because I enjoy the challenge of building things. I'm going for disposable rolled card rockets to start off with and have simply decided on KNO3/sugar as the fuel because of its low cost. I have no current experience at building them but I am studying engineering at university and have worked building submarines. I also have a good workshop to build things in.

I plan to take all the safety precautions while handling rocket fuel and can only make very small amounts due to UK laws only allowing tiny model rockets.

Edit: Ok turns out its completely illegal to make solid fuel motors in the UK. If I try i'll probably just end up with special forces coming through the door.

I was going to respond, but then noticed the edit. That's too bad. Are commercial motors also outlawed?

Anyway, I'm not sure a rolled card type motor would really work for KNO3/Sugar anyway. As I said, it actually burns relatively slowly under normal pressure. It's only when the motor gets up to pressure that it starts generating noticeable amounts of thrust, and that's one of the issues I ran into with mine. I had to develop an igniter that could get the motor up to pressure fast.

Anyway, the reason that won't work well with a rolled tube motor is that you're not really going to be able to effectively contain pressure in that. That's one of the reasons, I suspect, that other paper tube motors like Estes use black powder. It burns fast enough, under even normal pressure, that you don't have to worry about building, or maintaining, high pressure in the motor casing.

[Comrade Jenkens]

Commercial motors seem to be progressively more difficult to get. When I was younger I saw lots of people launching model rockets up on Dartmoor but now it is never seen at all. Reading up on this I think that you may need an explosives licence to even buy model ones. Can't see any mention of liquid fuelled ones though... That's not something I could make in a day though.

I'll have to think of some other engineering project to do then. I was trying to make an RC Sopwith Camel but there isn't very much in the way of RC supplies here either.

[andrew123]

I actually lost three to six large rocket motors in my home. The worst part is that they are all unburned and are chemical hazards.

[lajoswinkler]

Never melt the sugar. That's the stupidest thing you can do and produces hotspots, meaning your pot will probably turn into a small rocket engine.

Dissolve everything in water and then evaporate the water until the stuff becomes gooey.

Common sugar rockets aren't a chemical hazard. They're a fire hazard, but a slight one.

[andrew123]

Never experiment with hydrogen peroxide. My friend nearly blew his hand off.

My rockets were chemical motors. I believe they are chemical and fire hazard inducing components when lost in home.

Edited March 15, 2014 by andrew123

[lajoswinkler]

Never experiment with hydrogen peroxide. My friend nearly blew his hand off.

My rockets were chemical motors. I believe they are chemical and fire hazard inducing components when lost in home.

What was the composition of your motors (I presume they had solid fuel)? If it was potassium nitrate, it's not a chemical hazard. That compound is not volatile and it's not really a poison.

Hydrogen peroxide is not for amateur rocketry, I agree.

[Comrade Jenkens]

If I want to home make a rocket over here it will have to be a hybrid rocket as it is illegal to make solid motors and you can only get VERY small ones without a licence. I have the facilities to make a hybrid but it would be a major engineering challenge and I'm not sure that I'd have the required knowledge.

[lajoswinkler]

If I want to home make a rocket over here it will have to be a hybrid rocket as it is illegal to make solid motors and you can only get VERY small ones without a licence. I have the facilities to make a hybrid but it would be a major engineering challenge and I'm not sure that I'd have the required knowledge.

Do you have access to wide meadows and grassy areas? Who cares if it's illegal? You're not building a pipe bomb, you're stuffing a mixture of oxidizer and sugar in a lightweight tube with a nozzle. There is literally no way that thing could detonate. The worst that can happen is if you ignore the calculations and your rocket goes into sideways trajectory and smashes into property.

Illegal to make a solid rocket motor, but legal to make a hybrid? That's hardly true. Hybrids are serious rocket engines.

[Comrade Jenkens]

I live right next to a massive stretch of open moorland so I've got that pinned down

And hybrids aren't counted as explosives under UK law so can get around it.

[lajoswinkler]

I live right next to a massive stretch of open moorland so I've got that pinned down

And hybrids aren't counted as explosives under UK law so can get around it.

Rocket candy is not an explosive. I've never ever saw it detonate. It can combust fiercely, but in order to make a bomb out of it you'd need a miracle. It's not like black powder because its speed of combustion does not skyrocket in closed containers.

I have no idea why would such fuel be classified like that. Probably some people that want a nanny-state went to propose such thing to stupid politicians.

If you've got so much space, you don't have to care about it. Who is going to see what you're doing?

[Elthy]

In Germany its impossible to buy KNO3 and build rocketmotors from it if you dont have a licence (which is a smaller problem) and a officialy authorised production facility (i dont think my backyard counts, so this is the real problem). While you cant buy KNO3 you can buy other chemicals to make it on your own, but since the complete internet is under surveillance and KNO3 is officialy an "explosive" its very likely you have the GSG9 on your door the next day, because you could be a terrorist.

(i think the keywords in this post are enough for someone to look over this, greetings to you xD)

I have no idea why they have that restrictive laws in Germany, it drives harmless rocketbuilders into illegality while the "bad guys" still have their sources. I can understand why Ammonium perchlorate is prohibited, its realy dangerous, but KNO3 is as bad as gasoline...

BTW: How much is one Kilo of KNO3 in countrys where its legal? Im just wondering how much such a hobby would cost...

[Firov]

BTW: How much is one Kilo of KNO3 in countrys where its legal? Im just wondering how much such a hobby would cost...

In the US technical grade KNO3 costs around 20 dollars per kilogram, assuming you're only buying one kilogram. If you buy it in larger quantities, the price per unit starts to fall.

Source - http://www.skylighter.com/potassium-nitrate-powdered.htm

[Elthy]

Wow, thats nearly the same price when you would make it on your own here in Germany. I thought i would be much cheaper when you can buy it made in industrial scale...

[Comrade Jenkens]

If keywords can set internet surveillance off then I'm most definitely on the government watch list...

Over here its £8:00 per kg but i'll just have to get rid of the stuff I bought now I've checked the rules. (I'll probably use it as stump remover as we've got plenty of them!)

[lajoswinkler]

In Germany its impossible to buy KNO3 and build rocketmotors from it if you dont have a licence (which is a smaller problem) and a officialy authorised production facility (i dont think my backyard counts, so this is the real problem). While you cant buy KNO3 you can buy other chemicals to make it on your own, but since the complete internet is under surveillance and KNO3 is officialy an "explosive" its very likely you have the GSG9 on your door the next day, because you could be a terrorist.

(i think the keywords in this post are enough for someone to look over this, greetings to you xD)

I have no idea why they have that restrictive laws in Germany, it drives harmless rocketbuilders into illegality while the "bad guys" still have their sources. I can understand why Ammonium perchlorate is prohibited, its realy dangerous, but KNO3 is as bad as gasoline...

BTW: How much is one Kilo of KNO3 in countrys where its legal? Im just wondering how much such a hobby would cost...

No one will come to your door or even arrest you because of a kilogramme or two or perhaps even ten. If it was that much perchlorate... it might be a problem. Perchlorates are violent oxidizers capable of doing much damage.

It's only if you buy KNO3 on a large scale (50, 100 kg or more) when it raises some eyebrows. Trust me, agencies don't care about small quantities because such quantities aren't dangerous. Every legal action is costly. They can't afford all the fuss about measly quantities of a fairly benign salt.

KNO3 is officially NOT an explosive. It is an oxidizer and large quantities can be used to make serious amounts of black powder.

You know what alarms their software? Buying a 50 kg bag of pure ammonium nitrate. That thing, combined with petrol, makes a horrific, but tough to initiate explosive, so it's used as a tertiary charge. But when that thing blows up... it blows up. That was what was used in Oklahoma bombing. Small truck or van filled with such mixture and initiators was used to almost completely demolish a few stories tall building.

Don't succumb to the governmental nanny state terror. You've got nothing to hide, you're not a criminal and you aren't doing anything wrong, so use your free time to explore this wonderful hobby.

[Elthy]

No one will come to your door or even arrest you because of a kilogramme or two or perhaps even ten. If it was that much perchlorate... it might be a problem. Perchlorates are violent oxidizers capable of doing much damage.

It's only if you buy KNO3 on a large scale (50, 100 kg or more) when it raises some eyebrows. Trust me, agencies don't care about small quantities because such quantities aren't dangerous. Every legal action is costly. They can't afford all the fuss about measly quantities of a fairly benign salt.

KNO3 is officially NOT an explosive. It is an oxidizer and large quantities can be used to make serious amounts of black powder.

You know what alarms their software? Buying a 50 kg bag of pure ammonium nitrate. That thing, combined with petrol, makes a horrific, but tough to initiate explosive, so it's used as a tertiary charge. But when that thing blows up... it blows up. That was what was used in Oklahoma bombing. Small truck or van filled with such mixture and initiators was used to almost completely demolish a few stories tall building.

Don't succumb to the governmental nanny state terror. You've got nothing to hide, you're not a criminal and you aren't doing anything wrong, so use your free time to explore this wonderful hobby.

If you understand german or google translate is good enough to make this readable in english you should read this: http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/21/21622/1.html

The police searched several thousend houses because someone ordered just some NaOH or CuSO4, a teenager was arested for building a gas powered potato gun. Never ever underestimate the stupidity or the paranoia of the german police or lawmakers

[lajoswinkler]

If you understand german or google translate is good enough to make this readable in english you should read this: http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/21/21622/1.html

The police searched several thousend houses because someone ordered just some NaOH or CuSO4, a teenager was arested for building a gas powered potato gun. Never ever underestimate the stupidity or the paranoia of the german police or lawmakers

I've read the article. Yes, I know they are stupid, paranoid, corrupted and all that, but they can not exceed the law and get away with it in cases like this.

Again, you can't be held liable for any crime. Even if your house is searched (they need to have a warrant, never let anyone inside without it), you are just a hobbist and you pose no threat to lives, public health or property because you own few kilos of this oxidizer.

They can't press charges unless you're actually doing a criminal act. Criminal acts are more serious than mild violations of rules, remember that. The last thing they need is a public outrage, and you can press charges against them, too. Keeping quiet will not help because they are corrupted and, if given chance, will use their power to destroy someone's life. You live in a pretty decent country and there are legal mechanisms which work nicely, but people are afraid to use them for some reason.

Just be sure to follow safety rules and common sense when making engines and launching them. Never launch something you didn't do a static test on, or something you never did any calculations for, and do all testing away from people, flammable areas and property. If you don't pile oxidizers at your home and don't act shady, they've got nothing on you.

[Elthy]

Even if you are not sentenced or anyhing they would still search the house and keep all found Hardware for years, so you would have to buy everything again. In my family that could be several thousand Dollars, just think about all the Smartphones, PCs etc...

[Comrade Jenkens]

Why would they take all your electronics?