So many new possibilitys!!

[DerpenWolf]

So after watching a few videos of the new content I noticed Ion engines are now 4X more powerful than before!!!!!! The ion engine itself has gone from a painful .5kN of thrust to 2kN of thrust!!!!!! From what math I have done so far I do believe it may be possible to now make Ion craft that can land on Moho, the Mun, Ike (OK, I have seen someone land on Ike with the older version of the engine but it will be way easier now!!!), Vall, Eeloo, and even DUNA!!!! The only downside to this is that the Isp has been cut in half to a mere 2100... Still its higher than the NERVA!!! So pretty much the Ion engine is no longer really an ion engine and more so that of the VASMIR!!!!!! So my question is how will this effect you now that Ions have been so heavily altered? Are you super exited to make a massive Interplanetary ion powered vessel? Do you hate the devs for cutting its ISP down so much?? Do you really not care about this thread at all?

I am most certainly happy at the moment and cant wait to make some new Ion planes!!!

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/73547-%28Asteroid-Redirect%29-Mission-Monday

(got the data at 2nd video down at 7:28)

Edit/more data

-old fuel consumption = 0.121 x/s Max

- new fuel consumption = .9698 x/s Max?

Edited March 25, 2014 by DerpenWolf

[MalfunctionM1Ke]

I have been to all the Planets and Moons with current Stock-Parts, so I dont see the new possibilities. Sure, I love the new Parts but they are tremendously overpowered for the Game.

IMO 0.23.5 screems for some new Planets far far out or veeeeeery close to Kerbol.

[cantab]

People who didn't use ion engines before may be happy - though you're still set for long burns on all but a super-light craft. People who did use ion engines before may well be annoyed that their successful craft have been broken.

[MalfunctionM1Ke]

People who didn't use ion engines before may be happy - though you're still set for long burns on all but a super-light craft. People who did use ion engines before may well be annoyed that their successful craft have been broken.

Hey Cantab,

what do you mean with "broken"? As far as I know the Ions now have 4x the thrust, so they burn with the same ISP but the fuel flow is also 4x higher.

Why should this brake a craft? Because you still get the same dV for your fuel and engine.

[Dedjal]

does this mean that they are able to lift itself?

[Red Iron Crown]

Hey Cantab,

what do you mean with "broken"? As far as I know the Ions now have 4x the thrust, so they burn with the same ISP but the fuel flow is also 4x higher.

Why should this brake a craft? Because you still get the same dV for your fuel and engine.

It was my understanding that the Isp was reduced along with the thrust increase, so dV will decrease for a given craft.

[DerpenWolf]

does this mean that they are able to lift itself?

Not on Kerbin as their the engines TWR is now .8154943935 (F/(M*G)->2/(.25*9.81)) if I did the math right, so not quite enough to lift off vertically on kerbin but it is more than enough for other worlds (keep in mind that the total mass of the vessel is going to be pretty big which adds to the equation)

[TMS]

It was my understanding that the Isp was reduced along with the thrust increase, so dV will decrease for a given craft.

Apparently not.

[Silverchain]

Should make them a more practical auxiliary engine for light spaceplanes. I'll be trying that.

[Red Iron Crown]

Apparently not.

Can't watch youtube at work, but if it was a straight thrust increase that's awesome!

[NecroBones]

Apparently not.

Assuming this hasn't changed (for those not able to watch the clip right now), supposedly the thrust was increased 4x, but the ISP remains the same, meaning the total dV for the fuel supply is not changing. However, it's not pulling 4x the electrical power, making it electrically a little more efficient compared to the thrust than before.

[MalfunctionM1Ke]

Assuming this hasn't changed (for those not able to watch the clip right now), supposedly the thrust was increased 4x, but the ISP remains the same, meaning the total dV for the fuel supply is not changing. However, it's not pulling 4x the electrical power, making it electrically a little more efficient compared to the thrust than before.

I dont know about this necro. Because the fuelflow of the Xenon must be also 4x higher (still with the same ISP)

Probably we can only have this answered by someone with an experimental built.

[Streetwind]

To summarize what was said in that video:

- Four times as much thrust

- Isp remains the same

- Power consumption up by about 20% (to quote: requires the output of "a gigantor solar array at 1 AU distance", by which I assume is meant that it went from 15 EC/s up to 18 EC/s, because that's the standard output of a gigantor)

If this is true, EC/s per kN of thrust dropped sharply down, from 30 to 10. You only need one third as much power for the same thrust (or existing vessels will get 3x the thrust out of the power supply they have, unless they were overprovisioned from the start, in which case they'll get up to 4x)

As for videos that show otherwise - remember that the youtubers got early preview versions, while the version HarvesteR had at GDC was literally the latest build. Also, he's kind of the head dev, so he can state his intent even if it currently isn't implemented

But keep in mind that it hasn't been finalized yet and may change. We'll only know the final stats when the update arrives on our harddrives.

[Caelib]

I have been to all the Planets and Moons with current Stock-Parts, so I dont see the new possibilities. Sure, I love the new Parts but they are tremendously overpowered for the Game.

IMO 0.23.5 screems for some new Planets far far out or veeeeeery close to Kerbol.

But have you been to all of those places without using fuel lines/asparagus staging? I have a save where I did not use a single fuel line and it's extremely challenging to reach many places -- try it because the game is as challenging as YOU make it. If you consider the new parts overpowered, use them in a more realistic fashion (no fuel lines) and it may change your opinion.

[flywlyx]

Considering possibilities, I am more interested in that claw, this is what I am looking for!

[TMS]

Yeah, the video also says that the rate of xenon consumption is faster - presumably as it matches thrust.

Some of the comments on power consumption seemed contradictory to me... but given his comments about the sheer tedium of current ion drives, I'd say they'll buff it appropriately.

[Red Iron Crown]

Yeah, the video also says that the rate of xenon consumption is faster - presumably as it matches thrust.

It would have to be proportional to thrust for Isp to remain the same.

Edit: Unless the density of xenon is changed in the update, too.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Red Iron Crown

[qromodynmc]

Im going to build a plane with large wing and multiply ion engine..

[Rakaydos]

The ant engine almost tripling in power gives it a better TWR than the rocomax probe engine.

I'm waiting to see the crazy probe-asparaguses that come out of this.

[mellojoe]

Don't tell anyone, but I edited the Ion engines in stock to produce 1.0kn thrust a while ago. I also edited the fuel and power requirements to be half, thus yielding the same ISP and fuel rate but double the thrust. Going from 0.5 to 1.0 was enough of a change to make Ions fun to play with. Going even further and going to 2.0kn thrust? Means I might actually consider using them on satellites. Right now my Sats are RCS based. I could easily switch to Ion power, I think, with these new tweaks.

[Red Iron Crown]

thus yielding the same ISP and fuel rate but double the thrust.

Does not compute. If your fuel rate is the same but thrust is doubled, then Isp is doubled, too. Isp is an expression of thrust per unit fuel.

[NecroBones]

I think everyone's getting a little confused.

ISP is the thrust per amount of fuel consumed. If the thrust is quadrupled, and the ISP remains the same, that means the fuel rate is proportionately increased to match the thrust (thrust is 4x stronger, uses fuel 4x faster too), but the overall dV you get out of a fuel tank remains the same.

thus yielding the same ISP and fuel rate but double the thrust.

Does not compute. If your fuel rate is the same but thrust is doubled, then Isp is doubled, too. Isp is an expression of thrust per unit fuel.

In the above quote, I think it was just the wording that made it confusing. I think he meant that the fuel rate was the same compared to the dV it was generating, not per time.

Edited March 25, 2014 by NecroBones

[Javster]

I can see you're excited, you have 37 exclamation marks in your answer!

[Red Iron Crown]

I think everyone's getting a little confused.

ISP is the thrust per amount of fuel consumed. If the thrust per second is quadrupled, and the ISP remains the same, that means the fuel rate is proportionately increased to match the thrust (thrust is 4x stronger, uses fuel 4x faster too), but the overall dV you get out of a fuel tank remains the same.

Thrust per second isn't a thing.

In the above quote, I think it was just the wording that made it confusing. I think he meant that the fuel rate was the same compared to the dV it was generating, not per time.

That does make more sense.

[problemecium]

My only beef with the new ion engines is the power consumption nerf. I liked the high-power-demand mechanic - in fact I think were I on the dev team I'd have increased the power demands, because as I see things now it's too easy to slap a handful of mega-panels and a 4k battery on a ship and be able to power anything (interstellar mod, etc. aside). Especially with the transmission nerf from the last patch, which means a lot of people won't be sucking as much power transmitting stuff.