[Moderators, Please lock]Who is best Mercury Astronuat???

[ZooNamedGames]

I agree that the Mercury 7 lobbied hard and successfully for more manual control, I don't agree that it was necessary or even contributory to the program's success.

Basically, any person of sufficient courage could have sat in the Mercury capsule without a significant difference in the success of the program.

Well regardless of its effect in Mercury, sadly in reality it's impact is felt throughout space history... Such as Gemini. Look at the Big G, Blue Gemini and so in programs... They REQUIRE a pilot in control. It's a fact, NASA was gonna put a man in control and it would change history.

[Motokid600]

If something goes wrong with the computer you NEED manual control. Even the entire SaturnV had manual control just incase the computer shutdown and the commander could pilot the rocket all the way to orbit. Yes the Mercury boys lobied hard for the window and manual control for the buck-Rogers appeal, but in the end.. you need manual control.

[Red Iron Crown]

Well regardless of its effect in Mercury, sadly in reality it's impact is felt throughout space history... Such as Gemini. Look at the Big G, Blue Gemini and so in programs... They REQUIRE a pilot in control. It's a fact, NASA was gonna put a man in control and it would change history.

You'll have to explain to me how the pilot controlling anything changed history; in my opinion it was the spacecraft itself rather than the minor detail of how much control the astronaut had that changed history. NASA's rocket scientists strongly resisted manual control, it was only the immense public popularity of the astronauts that let them essentially blackmail the rocket scientists into allowing more control. That carried over into Gemini, where the astronauts (particularly Grissom) exerted a disproportionate amount of control on the spacecraft design.

[ZooNamedGames]

You'll have to explain to me how the pilot controlling anything changed history; in my opinion it was the spacecraft itself rather than the minor detail of how much control the astronaut had that changed history. NASA's rocket scientists strongly resisted manual control, it was only the immense public popularity of the astronauts that let them essentially blackmail the rocket scientists into allowing more control. That carried over into Gemini, where the astronauts (particularly Grissom) exerted a disproportionate amount of control on the spacecraft design.

Well during the Apollo 14 lunar decent the LM Abort node nearly killed them, if it had activated. However, due to PILOT control, they managed to bump it out. Also Gemini 8 had to use a pilot for MANUAL control because, otherwise the pilots would've died on auto. We would never have those memorable words "Small Step for small... One giant leap for mankind" blah, why? Because he would've died due to the excessive G forces.

Also, you never said anything to my comment on the Gemini projects. I really want to know what Blue Gemini would've been like on full auto... I'm sorry. Blue Gemini just wouldn't exist if we went full auto

[Red Iron Crown]

Well during the Apollo 14 lunar decent the LM Abort node nearly killed them, if it had activated. However, due to PILOT control, they managed to bump it out. Also Gemini 8 had to use a pilot for MANUAL control because, otherwise the pilots would've died on auto. We would never have those memorable words "Small Step for small... One giant leap for mankind" blah, why? Because he would've died due to the excessive G forces.

The pilots in Apollo 14 didn't solve the abort problem, they just keyed in the solution provided to them by Mission Control.

Similarly, there was no reason a man in the seat was needed for resolving Gemini 8's issues, the exact things the astronauts did could have been done remotely. And even if Armstrong had died, I think we still would have reached the moon and someone else's words would have been immortalized. I guess you could consider that history changing, I don't. The important thing is that we landed on the moon, not which man in particular did it first, IMO. Maybe my view of history is peculiar in that regard.

Also, you never said anything to my comment on the Gemini projects. I really want to know what Blue Gemini would've been like on full auto... I'm sorry. Blue Gemini just wouldn't exist if we went full auto

Blue Gemini didn't exist except on paper, it was cancelled before any hardware was produced, let alone any missions flown.

[ZooNamedGames]

The pilots in Apollo 14 didn't solve the abort problem, they just keyed in the solution provided to them by Mission Control.

Similarly, there was no reason a man in the seat was needed for resolving Gemini 8's issues, the exact things the astronauts did could have been done remotely. And even if Armstrong had died, I think we still would have reached the moon and someone else's words would have been immortalized. I guess you could consider that history changing, I don't. The important thing is that we landed on the moon, not which man in particular did it first, IMO. Maybe my view of history is peculiar in that regard.

Blue Gemini didn't exist except on paper, it was cancelled before any hardware was produced, let alone any missions flown.

Well control is what solves problems. For example, and this is a potential one that would be difficult for RC to fix. If Curiosity were to drive along, doing its thing, when, it drove over a place where the crust had been weak and fell into an unknown cavern. Now, just for your info, it takes 6 minutes for the information to travel from Mars to Earth, so by the time they hear about it, Curiosity has been stuck down there for six minutes. Now if it was a manned Martian rover, then they would be able to fix it, but from Earth in mission control, what would you do?

Also, the capsule for Blue Gemini was designed AND the Titan III launch was made to test its carrying capacity for the MOL, Big G missions. So they made it beyond paper and into reality. They just never got used, like the EVA packs made during the Gemini missions. Those EVA packs were made, and stored, but never got used because by the time the astronaut got back there, he was too damn tired to use it. By the time they got all the handrails, footrests and Velcro in place, they decided to scrap the idea entirely... Or at least until the Soace Shuttle came along...

Edited April 3, 2014 by ZooNamedGames

[Red Iron Crown]

Well control is what solves problems. For example, and this is a potential one that would be difficult for RC to fix. If Curiosity were to drive along, doing its thing, when, it drove over a place where the crust had been weak and fell into an unknown cavern. Now, just for your info, it takes 6 minutes for the information to travel from Mars to Earth, so by the time they hear about it, Curiosity has been stuck down there for six minutes. Now if it was a manned Martian rover, then they would be able to fix it, but from Earth in mission control, what would you do?

So, do you think that NASA made a mistake sending an unmanned rover?

Also, the capsule for Blue Gemini was designed AND the Titan III launch was made to test its carrying capacity for the MOL, Big G missions. So they made it beyond paper and into reality.

"Designed" = "paper", and Blue Gemini was only one of the many payloads the Titan III was designed for. Blue Gemini was a paper project.

[ZooNamedGames]

So, do you think that NASA made a mistake sending an unmanned rover?

"Designed" = "paper", and Blue Gemini was only one of the many payloads the Titan III was designed for. Blue Gemini was a paper project.

There was a capsule made for and by the specifications of the Blue Gemini project.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gemini-B.jpg

Sadly to say, nothing you've said has had ANY reference or source whatsoever other than personal opinion.

Case I point, if I can't change your opinion I have to live with it...l regardless of how I feel against it.

[Red Iron Crown]

There was a capsule made for and by the specifications of the Blue Gemini project.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gemini-B.jpg

Sadly to say, nothing you've said has had ANY reference or source whatsoever other than personal opinion.

Case I point, if I can't change your opinion I have to live with it...l regardless of how I feel against it.

Well, if you're using Wikipedia as a source, the Blue Gemini article is illuminating:

Because Blue Gemini was only a paper project that was canceled before NASA started any Gemini flights, no Blue Gemini hardware was constructed.

And from the Manned Orbiting Laboratory article, referring to craft in the the picture you linked:

A test article at the National Museum of the United States Air Force, at Wright-Patterson AFB, Ohio is the Gemini B spacecraft (sometimes confused with Blue Gemini).

Besides which, none of the Blue Gemini information you've put forward supports your assertion that:

I really want to know what Blue Gemini would've been like on full auto... I'm sorry. Blue Gemini just wouldn't exist if we went full auto

When in fact Blue Gemini didn't meaningfully exist other than on paper. I don't think it would have been any different on "full auto".

[ZooNamedGames]

Well, if you're using Wikipedia as a source, the Blue Gemini article is illuminating:

And from the Manned Orbiting Laboratory article, referring to craft in the the picture you linked:

Besides which, none of the Blue Gemini information you've put forward supports your assertion that:

When in fact Blue Gemini didn't meaningfully exist other than on paper. I don't think it would have been any different on "full auto".

Well regardless of the fact whether or not it existed, the point is: It was DESIGNED for a person in command to do things in control along with his equipment in the pilots seat. The mission was to be treated more like a recon mission preformed by the USAF than a actual space mission. The mission called for a pilot in command. Plain and simple.

[Skyrunner27]

How did this go from talking about how Shepard's quote did little to actually change the space program to a argument about automation vs. Manual. Sure manual came in handy once in a while but it also caused problem in flight such as Scott Carpenters flight. Or the manual Progress crash.

Also while on the subject of Gemini http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Gemini says that. "Blue Gemini should not be confused with the Gemini B spacecraft that was developed for MOL. Gemini B included a tunnel through its heat shield to enable the astronauts to reach the MOL spacecraft."

[Red Iron Crown]

If we want to bring it back to the Mercury 7, I nominate Deke Slayton as the best of them. Though he was grounded early, his role as Head of Astronaut Selection was influential right through the end of the Apollo program.

[KASASpace]

Gordo.

Faith 7 (Mercury-Atlas 9 was the official designation)

Cooper had drawn lines on the window to stay aligned with constellations as he flew the craft. He later said he used his wristwatch to time the burn and his eyes to maintain attitude

-Wikipedia, not the best source, but here it is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_7

Ghost rendezvous on Gemini 5.

Although Alan Shepherd did hit a golf ball on the moon........

[KASASpace]

I agree that the Mercury 7 lobbied hard and successfully for more manual control, I don't agree that it was necessary or even contributory to the program's success.

Basically, any person of sufficient courage could have sat in the Mercury capsule without a significant difference in the success of the program.

Umm, not really.

During the early days of spaceflight, many systems weren't entirely reliable and could break. Even the rockets themselves.

Notice that Gordo Cooper, who would have died if not for the window, and manual control, reentered mostly on manual control.

If he had died, the space program may have been cancelled. THAT EARLY.

Edited April 4, 2014 by KASASpace

[KASASpace]

You mean the Russian space program that beat the US to pretty much every milestone but landing a man on the Moon?

Ahem.

Rendevzous.

Docking.

EVA where something got DONE, effectively without tiring.

Actually DISCOVERED something with their first satellite.

Had Solid-State computers, so no Airlocks or anything needed, like the Russians needed.

Also, thanks to Robert Goddard, the USA had the first liquid rocket, which is a huge step for space.

[ZooNamedGames]

Ahem.

Rendevzous.

Docking.

EVA where something got DONE, effectively without tiring.

Actually DISCOVERED something with their first satellite.

Had Solid-State computers, so no Airlocks or anything needed, like the Russians needed.

Also, thanks to Robert Goddard, the USA had the first liquid rocket, which is a huge step for space.

The astronauts DIDN'T tire? Yes, they achieved SOME things, but not every little thing on their list, heck no. They designed an EVA pack back then, but it was never used (granted it was packed and useable) because by the astronauts got to the damn thing they were too tired to use it and command would scrub the mission. We ended up using it during the SS era, NOT Gemini.

However your right on the control portion and the fact that the SP WOULD have been cancelled that early. Congress wanted to shut down NASA PRIOR to GEMINI. So its a fact, NASA would be dead without control.

[KASASpace]

The astronauts DIDN'T tire? Yes, they achieved SOME things, but not every little thing on their list, heck no. They designed an EVA pack back then, but it was never used (granted it was packed and useable) because by the astronauts got to the damn thing they were too tired to use it and command would scrub the mission. We ended up using it during the SS era, NOT Gemini.

Gemini 12, Buzz Aldrin has a series of EVAs, one lasting more than two hours.

Ever wonder where water training came from? I believe Buzz had proposed it, and used it before that mission.

[Red Iron Crown]

The astronauts DIDN'T tire? Yes, they achieved SOME things, but not every little thing on their list, heck no. They designed an EVA pack back then, but it was never used (granted it was packed and useable) because by the astronauts got to the damn thing they were too tired to use it and command would scrub the mission. We ended up using it during the SS era, NOT Gemini.

Eugene Cernan describes this in his book, pretty much exactly as you described. The suits inflated enough to make movement very difficult and tiring. Not as bad as the Russian situation on the first EVA, where they had to deflate the suit to get back in the capsule (seriously, that takes some intestinal fortitude).

However your right on the control portion and the fact that the SP WOULD have been cancelled that early. Congress wanted to shut down NASA PRIOR to GEMINI. So its a fact, NASA would be dead without control.

Maybe. The deaths in Apollo 1 weren't enough to stop the Space Program, but that was after Kennedy had made it a point of national pride to go to the Moon. I wonder if he would have made the "We choose to go to the Moon" speech if Cooper had died during Mercury-Atlas 9.

[KASASpace]

Eugene Cernan describes this in his book, pretty much exactly as you described. The suits inflated enough to make movement very difficult and tiring. Not as bad as the Russian situation on the first EVA, where they had to deflate the suit to get back in the capsule (seriously, that takes some intestinal fortitude).

In the first EVAs, yes. I am speaking of Gemini 12.

Maybe. The deaths in Apollo 1 weren't enough to stop the Space Program, but that was after Kennedy had made it a point of national pride to go to the Moon. I wonder if he would have made the "We choose to go to the Moon" speech if Cooper had died during Mercury-Atlas 9.

Cooper actually launched after 1961. So Kennedy already made the speech.

And Apollo 1 happened while the Apollo program was many years on track, so they were NOT going to cancel it. However, Cooper's flight was not that far after 1961.

[ZooNamedGames]

Gemini 12, Buzz Aldrin has a series of EVAs, one lasting more than two hours.

Ever wonder where water training came from? I believe Buzz had proposed it, and used it before that mission.

There was training for the EVA backpack, but again, (like the Gemini Paraglider/Skylab 3 or whatever mission) it was never used, even though it was used in training. The thing is that the EVA backpack was NEVER used in space until the SS era.

Also, the suits WHERE very stiff.

Finally, the deaths of Apollo proved that deaths can happen ANYWHERE, that is one of many reasons the SP survived. If Challenger had happened during any mission prior to Apollo 12, they might have ended NASA. The thing is that it showed that it can happen anywhere, not that the space FLIGHT is dangerous. It's like you sitting in a test plane on a runway, and it explodes, now that doesn't mean they will never fly it, but it does mean that anything can happen... especially during testing.

[KASASpace]

There was training for the EVA backpack, but again, (like the Gemini Paraglider/Skylab 3 or whatever mission) it was never used, even though it was used in training. The thing is that the EVA backpack was NEVER used in space until the SS era.

Also, the suits WHERE very stiff.

I'm talking Gemini 12 here.

http://www.astronautix.com/flights/gemini12.htm

And the suits where stiff, I know that. I'm not saying they weren't. I'm saying that Aldrin's first spaceflight had the first EVA that was successful.

[ZooNamedGames]

I'm talking Gemini 12 here.

http://www.astronautix.com/flights/gemini12.htm

And the suits where stiff, I know that. I'm not saying they weren't. I'm saying that Aldrin's first spaceflight had the first EVA that was successful.

True, and I never said it wasn't. Now, you can't say I'm wrong, when I say they NEVER did use the Gemini EVA backpack tho... right?

[Red Iron Crown]

Finally, the deaths of Apollo proved that deaths can happen ANYWHERE, that is one of many reasons the SP survived. If Challenger had happened during any mission prior to Apollo 12, they might have ended NASA. The thing is that it showed that it can happen anywhere, not that the space FLIGHT is dangerous. It's like you sitting in a test plane on a runway, and it explodes, now that doesn't mean they will never fly it, but it does mean that anything can happen... especially during testing.

That's a good point. Hard to say what would have happened, I think it could easily have gone either way.

[KASASpace]

True, and I never said it wasn't. Now, you can't say I'm wrong, when I say they NEVER did use the Gemini EVA backpack tho... right?

Yes.

You never said it wasn't but you also never said it was. At least I didn't see the comment where you did say it.....

[xcorps]

You'll have to explain to me how the pilot controlling anything changed history; in my opinion it was the spacecraft itself rather than the minor detail of how much control the astronaut had that changed history. NASA's rocket scientists strongly resisted manual control, it was only the immense public popularity of the astronauts that let them essentially blackmail the rocket scientists into allowing more control. That carried over into Gemini, where the astronauts (particularly Grissom) exerted a disproportionate amount of control on the spacecraft design.

I agree with this. We would have accomplished a lot more for a lot less money if we had used unmanned rockets. The more time and effort we spent on getting men into space, the more we lost.

Gus Grissom was my favorite.