[1.02] Vertical Propulsion Emporium. v0.22b (10th may 2015)

[Geschosskopf]

Well, I can't help with modding but I can at least advertise:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/75709-SteamPunKerbal-To-Mun-in-a-Barrel?p=1074903#post1074903

And I misspoke earlier. The perforated fins were really in 11a, I just didn't see them hiding in the structure section instead of aero .

Anyway, in the course of flying the above rocket to Mun, I encountered a few issues. This was with 11a, don't know yet if they're still there for 12a.

1. Steam Flows Like Mono

That is, all steam tanks get used up simultaneously and ignores fuel lines. I don't know if this is intentional or not so I figured I'd better mention it. You can't asparagus stacks of steam tanks. But OTOH, I don't see how it would be possible to do that anyway. But basically, it turns steam engines into throttleable SRBs instead of being like liquid fuel engines.

2. Steam Tanks Make Lag

Something about the steam tanks causes HUGE lag, the 1st I've seen in the game since 0.23.5's performance boost. The lag gets down to a bit less than 10fps, both in the VAB and on the launch pad. The strange thing, though, is that this lag only happens when the engines aren't running. Once you start them, the lag goes away. I have no idea why that should be.

3. Monopropellant Rocket VERY Wobble When Stacked

I guess it's because all the 2.5m parts above it are balanced on the tiny nozzle. But the bottom line is that to use this as a lander engine, I had to seriously strut around it, which was a bit surprising given the stronger joints in 0.23.5. Here's an example (note the 1/2 cogs to make strut bridges).

4. Steam Engine Particle Effects

The steam jets surround the nozzle but leave the nozzle visible, so it looks like the jets are actually behind the nozzle as you're looking at it. As shown here:

Also, I have a balance question. The steam engine eats about 56 steam per second. The boiler produces about 20 steam per second so you need 3 boilers (plus a steam tank to put the steam into, and water, oil, and oxidizer tanks to feed the boilers) to keep 1 steam engine happy. But all that weighs more than 1 steam engine can lift. Maybe increase boiler output to better match engine consumption?

In this regard, in real life, water-to-steam has a 1700:1 expansion ratio. That is, 1 volume unit of water becomes 1700 volume units of steam. Of course, the liquid on Kerbin isn't water as we know it--it's WAY too dense for that--so no doubt things work different there. But as it stands now, it looks like you've got only a 20:1 expansion ratio in the boilers. There is thus a lot of room to increase boiler output and thus keep weight down to where steam engines could lift enough boilers to keep them running.

[Boosterspice]

This is some sweet stuff! I'll be making steampunk asteroid retrievers now

Oh, and if you need a flag, I'll gladly help you

[Kerb-fu]

Well, I can't help with modding but I can at least advertise:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/75709-SteamPunKerbal-To-Mun-in-a-Barrel?p=1074903#post1074903

And I misspoke earlier. The perforated fins were really in 11a, I just didn't see them hiding in the structure section instead of aero .

Anyway, in the course of flying the above rocket to Mun, I encountered a few issues. This was with 11a, don't know yet if they're still there for 12a.

1. Steam Flows Like Mono

That is, all steam tanks get used up simultaneously and ignores fuel lines. I don't know if this is intentional or not so I figured I'd better mention it. You can't asparagus stacks of steam tanks. But OTOH, I don't see how it would be possible to do that anyway. But basically, it turns steam engines into throttleable SRBs instead of being like liquid fuel engines.

2. Steam Tanks Make Lag

Something about the steam tanks causes HUGE lag, the 1st I've seen in the game since 0.23.5's performance boost. The lag gets down to a bit less than 10fps, both in the VAB and on the launch pad. The strange thing, though, is that this lag only happens when the engines aren't running. Once you start them, the lag goes away. I have no idea why that should be.

3. Monopropellant Rocket VERY Wobble When Stacked

I guess it's because all the 2.5m parts above it are balanced on the tiny nozzle. But the bottom line is that to use this as a lander engine, I had to seriously strut around it, which was a bit surprising given the stronger joints in 0.23.5. Here's an example (note the 1/2 cogs to make strut bridges).

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7247/13698187705_3bf497e798_b.jpg

4. Steam Engine Particle Effects

The steam jets surround the nozzle but leave the nozzle visible, so it looks like the jets are actually behind the nozzle as you're looking at it. As shown here:

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7147/13698215683_c2ea99a9bf.jpg

Also, I have a balance question. The steam engine eats about 56 steam per second. The boiler produces about 20 steam per second so you need 3 boilers (plus a steam tank to put the steam into, and water, oil, and oxidizer tanks to feed the boilers) to keep 1 steam engine happy. But all that weighs more than 1 steam engine can lift. Maybe increase boiler output to better match engine consumption?

In this regard, in real life, water-to-steam has a 1700:1 expansion ratio. That is, 1 volume unit of water becomes 1700 volume units of steam. Of course, the liquid on Kerbin isn't water as we know it--it's WAY too dense for that--so no doubt things work different there. But as it stands now, it looks like you've got only a 20:1 expansion ratio in the boilers. There is thus a lot of room to increase boiler output and thus keep weight down to where steam engines could lift enough boilers to keep them running.

My original Idea for steam was for it to be used across the vessel like mono, so the resource has kindof stayed that way. may change due to feedback or inspiration. I forgot about the honest kerbal tendancy to keep adding rockets... so maybe i should go back to a more fuel like resource...

I am not sure, but I suspect the lag is from the engines, they are a bit high poly with all the curves.

The monoprop rocket has not caused issues in my testing, however i did have kerbal joint reinforcement in my test install.

I will tinker with the steam effects, I would like to find a trail effect that lasts into the vacuum of space, like a trail of frozen water etc...

I originally had an expansion rate of 2000:1, however it seemed over powered, so did 200:1, so I ended up at 20:1. I might have to increase the fuel and oxidiser ratio's instead to keep it realistic, or you could jet across the solar system on one tank of water.

I also did not want to overpower the boiler by allowing it to keep up with the engine, I was trying for forced resource planning/management so pilots would have to take into account how steam looses heat and plan their usage accordingly... I was also toying with an idea for random steam failure, as superheated steam is highly corrosive. Again this could change from feedback or late night inspiration.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Kerb-fu

[Kerb-fu]

This is some sweet stuff! I'll be making steampunk asteroid retrievers now

Oh, and if you need a flag, I'll gladly help you

Cool, Moar flags are certainly better than less flags, if you have any flag ideas you want to share then please dust em off and wheel them out, I can include them if you dont mind

[Geschosskopf]

My original Idea for steam was for it to be used across the vessel like mono, so the resource has kindof stayed that way. may change due to feedback or inspiration. I forgot about the honest kerbal tendancy to keep adding rockets... so maybe i should go back to a more fuel like resource...

No, I'm happy with it as is, I was just making sure you knew in case you wanted it to act like LFO. Steam, as you say, is perishable due to heat loss and AFAIK in all real life applications it moves through pipes under its own pressure. This latter would make fuel lines equalize pressure between tanks instead of allowing flow from a the tank with the lower pressure (steam leaving via its own engine plus the fuel line) into the tank with the higher pressure (only its own engine). So IMHO steam should indeed act like mono, not LFO.

The monoprop rocket has not caused issues in my testing, however i did have kerbal joint reinforcement in my test install.

Try with stock joints. The 0.23.5 stock joints are incredibly strong in essentially every case. Ship I used to make that required 200 struts now get by with like a dozen. This is why I brought up the wobble of the mono engine when atop a stack separator. It's way wobbly compared to all other joints.

I will tinker with the steam effects, I would like to find a trail effect that lasts into the vacuum of space, like a trail of frozen water etc...

Yeah, a contrail in space would be very cool .

I originally had an expansion rate of 2000:1, however it seemed over powered, so did 200:1, so I ended up at 20:1. I might have to increase the fuel and oxidiser ratio's instead to keep it realistic, or you could jet across the solar system on one tank of water.

I also did not want to overpower the boiler by allowing it to keep up with the engine, I was trying for forced resource planning/management so pilots would have to take into account how steam looses heat and plan their usage accordingly... I was also toying with an idea for random steam failure, as superheated steam is highly corrosive. Again this could change from feedback or late night inspiration.

In my misspent youth back when the US Navy still owned non-nuke steamships, I briefly served aboard USS Robison, DDG-12, long since cut up for scrap. This ship had a steam plant that ran, after going through the superheater, at 950^F and 1200psi, AFAIK the highest pressure ever put afloat as standard equipment. From about 1900 to the end of true steamships, naval steam plants doubled in pressure every 10-20 years because higher pressure, which goes with higher temperature, makes for more efficiency. For instance, the standard pressure of top-line warships in WW2 was 600psi. But 1200psi was a bridge too far; conventional materials like stainless steel couldn't handle it so it was always springing man-killing leaks (as in lopping off body parts), so today's steam plants (now only found in nuke ships and any type of electrical power plant) have MOSTLY reverted to the reliable 600psi or thereabouts. Back in Victorian times, steam pressures struggled and usually failed to reach 100psi. Ironclads of the time, the most high-tech things then in existence, mostly ran in the 2 digits.

While a pinhole leak in a 1200psi steam line can cut somebody in half and make its immediate surroundings untenable, nobody else on this 4400-ton DDG would notice until the engine room escape scuttles opened and the steam vented up on deck as the half-boiled snipes struggled out. The ship wouldn't even shake, let alone move, due to this thrust. And a pinhole creates the highest exhaust velocity and thus the most thrust. So I'm really not thinking steam is very viable heavy lift engine, even with mid-20th Century 1200psi, and certainly not with the much lower pressures available in Victorian times.

Now, realism is 1 thing, KSP is another, and steampunk is something else. So feel free to disregard all the above. But if it was me doing this, I'd make whale oil the main lift engine (so it would need several sizes like stock LFO engines) and use steam for transfer stages and RCS. As a transfer stage, it would be analogous to an LV-N, as in low TWR but economical. Due to an inability to store steam at high pressure, you'd have to have the boiler, which is where the weight comes from. But you could vent an insignificant amount of steam out nozzles for a great RCS system.

Cool, Moar flags are certainly better than less flags, if you have any flag ideas you want to share then please dust em off and wheel them out, I can include them if you dont mind

Because of the whale oil, we definitely need a flag from Dishonored .

[Kerb-fu]

I did actually run very fast with my eyes closed past the steam pressure figures from vicorian era technology...

More recent research has shown steam to be a usable propellant, but less efficient than more mainstream rocket tech, and so I took a leap of faith and had the professor construct some superheaters and pipes that deny physics to acheive propulsion.

My rcs might indead change to a steam based propellant with a core boiler on each vessel, possible using a solar boiler or conventional kettle technology.

Alchohol rockets have my attention at the moment, all the mushine base hilarity and refueling possibilities from asteroids, moons etc...

Even electrolysis to seperate water to hydrogen and oxygen, and then light up the gasses for explosive fun

[Geschosskopf]

I did actually run very fast with my eyes closed past the steam pressure figures from vicorian era technology...

That's probably for the best .

Alchohol rockets have my attention at the moment, all the mushine base hilarity and refueling possibilities from asteroids, moons etc...

I don't do any of the life support mods because they assume Kerbals have human physiology despite them being little green things from a toy-sized, uber-dense planet. But all my Kerbals, especially those designing and controlling rockets, drink heavily, as if it was a metabolic requirement. So I'd support a life support mod that only worried about how much booze was aboard . Like the original, un-PC version of Sid Meyer's Pirates!, where you had to acquire rum to keep your crew from mutinying.

[Kerb-fu]

Yaaaargh! steampunk pirate kerbals get more booty!!!!!

[Kerb-fu]

Behold!!! the CogJeb.....

May have to include a chance to explode...

[Mekan1k]

Behold!!! the CogJeb.....

http://i.imgur.com/ZgrzXvR.jpg

May have to include a chance to explode...

I have only one thing to say to this:

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

(Is it KAS-placement capable? Because that would be SO COOL!)

[Kerb-fu]

I have only one thing to say to this:

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

http://i.imgur.com/HYvIK9q.gif

(Is it KAS-placement capable? Because that would be SO COOL!)

I will not rest until it is so!!!!

[Xentoe]

Very lovely idea.

But why are the tips of the rockets decouplers?

(I mean the roof parts like the rounded top and so...)

Sometimes the rocket sticks (even with legs (the curved metall ones) in the startplattform.

This mods needs real more parts :-)

(especial more crewcabins).

Hmm would like to build a rocket outof my childhoods fav cartoonshow *gG* but this will so or so not work, the parts are to "long" :-)

But real it is very nice don *thumbs up*

Oh and you have at many parts double attachmentpoints (two nearly at the same position) what causes many parts to glitch into eatch other.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Xentoe

[Kerb-fu]

I will not rest until it is so!!!!

Behold.... The CogJeb_Jeb....

[Kerb-fu]

Very lovely idea.

But why are the tips of the rockets decouplers?

(I mean the roof parts like the rounded top and so...)

Sometimes the rocket sticks (even with legs (the curved metall ones) in the startplattform.

This mods needs real more parts :-)

(especial more crewcabins).

Hmm would like to build a rocket outof my childhoods fav cartoonshow *gG* but this will so or so not work, the parts are to "long" :-)

But real it is very nice don *thumbs up*

Oh and you have at many parts double attachmentpoints (two nearly at the same position) what causes many parts to glitch into eatch other.

Hi, the multiple stacknodes are so the LES can attach to different nosecones etc,

More parts are coming, as I make them I include them... there is allways room for improvement and suggestions

[Kerb-fu]

and the Jet-Jeb....

Cant control throttle in EVA....

[Mekan1k]

and the Jet-Jeb....

http://i.imgur.com/SqE2cMZ.jpg

Cant control throttle in EVA....

Oh- make it a self-contained probe that can decouple, land, be picked up by a kerbal and then replaced for a recharge! (recharge electricity, and mono-propellant)

[ahappydude]

Oh- make it a self-contained probe that can decouple, land, be picked up by a kerbal and then replaced for a recharge! (recharge electricity, and mono-propellant)

Thats a beatiful steampunk jetpack! Have you ever heard about kerbquest? It still works with the latest ksp, and it would give you the ability to have jetpacks, gliders etc, you could use that plugin for your own jetpack Toggable in eva and such

http://kerbalspaceprogram.com/kerbolquest-jetpacks/

[Kerb-fu]

Oh- make it a self-contained probe that can decouple, land, be picked up by a kerbal and then replaced for a recharge! (recharge electricity, and mono-propellant)

I will give a go, anyone who can give more advice on this would be greatly appreciated...

[Kerb-fu]

Thats a beatiful steampunk jetpack! Have you ever heard about kerbquest? It still works with the latest ksp, and it would give you the ability to have jetpacks, gliders etc, you could use that plugin for your own jetpack Toggable in eva and such

http://kerbalspaceprogram.com/kerbolquest-jetpacks/

I am looking at it now...

---Edit---

Hmmm, no licence i can see yet, I dont want to steal their work so I guess I had better learn to code

Edited April 8, 2014 by Kerb-fu

[ahappydude]

Havnt seen from the mod devs in a while, but it isnt stealing if you are using it for your part and give credits to them Or you could do it as a probe/externalseat and use that modules, looks dandy! Great work

ed

If you make it as an probe, you could(just a thought) add an small windwheel and make it generate electricity haha.

Edited April 8, 2014 by ahappydude

[Boosterspice]

As long as you credit the original devs, I don't think it counts as "stealing".

[Green Skull]

This work is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-NoDerivs 3.0 Unported License. To view a copy of this license, visit http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nd/3.0/ or send a letter to Creative Commons, 444 Castro Street, Suite 900, Mountain View, California, 94041, USA.

Copyright

Razchek; Hubs Electrical (Custom Seat Code)

Snjo; Firespitter (Propulsion Control Systems)

From the download under the plugin so the plugin is fine to use I'm gonna make me a NASA EVA pack for my suits later! Been searching for this for ages!

Cog Jeb is awesome! Keep up the good work! Expect suits download later

[ahappydude]

This work is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-NoDerivs 3.0 Unported License. To view a copy of this license, visit http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nd/3.0/ or send a letter to Creative Commons, 444 Castro Street, Suite 900, Mountain View, California, 94041, USA.

Copyright

Razchek; Hubs Electrical (Custom Seat Code)

Snjo; Firespitter (Propulsion Control Systems)

From the download under the plugin so the plugin is fine to use I'm gonna make me a NASA EVA pack for my suits later! Been searching for this for ages!

Cog Jeb is awesome! Keep up the good work! Expect suits download later

You can make alot of stuff with kerbquest and or with kas Belive me hehe.. Oh good to helped out =) the one suit for this mod you made was so suitable

[Kerb-fu]

This work is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-NoDerivs 3.0 Unported License. To view a copy of this license, visit http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nd/3.0/ or send a letter to Creative Commons, 444 Castro Street, Suite 900, Mountain View, California, 94041, USA.

Copyright

Razchek; Hubs Electrical (Custom Seat Code)

Snjo; Firespitter (Propulsion Control Systems)

From the download under the plugin so the plugin is fine to use I'm gonna make me a NASA EVA pack for my suits later! Been searching for this for ages!

Cog Jeb is awesome! Keep up the good work! Expect suits download later

Thanks everyone for the feedback and finding the license. I will see what happens with the jetpack, I hope i can get it to go

[Green Skull]

Thanks everyone for the feedback and finding the license. I will see what happens with the jetpack, I hope i can get it to go

Use the plugin and reference the config in the packs shouldn't be too hard. Looking forward to trying it!