Fly a plane using only capsule torque and thrust vectoring!

[ExplodingRocketShips]

I choose this post to respond to the pundits.

Gee whiz. I'm so sorry I spoiled your fun by completing this challenge within the guidelines posted. Disqualified? Are you serious? Do you think I was actually attempting some uber score? Please, don't even think you dented my ego by disqualifying me. Besides, you're not the OP so it's not your decision. And... If the rules are so vague as to allow misinterpretation, how is that the fault of the competitor?

For the rest of you, there's a HUGE difference between plane and vtol. The OP awarded points for vtol. Unfortunately the OP has

since changed the rules to now make it SVTOL which I have no desire to design. Furthermore the original rules allowed atomics. Correct me if I'm mistaken but last I checked atomics are ROCKET engines.

Had he left it vtol, I would have gladly changed my post and submitted my real entry.

Dude, Calm Down, That's a Frikkin moderator your snapping back at!

[Keldaria]

I have updated my design with two droptanks, three ram air intakes in place of the single standard intake, and a turbojet engine in place of the standard engine, to try and get the "Magellan" achievement, though losing the low part count. I ended up flying around the world twice, because one of my suborbital hops ended up in an orbit with a 100k apoapsis and a 55k periapsis, even though I only had one air breathing engine. Does that count as an SSTO? I ended up using less than one fuel tank for both loops too.. very hard to fly, almost no pitch response, and landings are a bit "hot", and bouncy. But I managed to land back at KSC, and then to take off again and to hop to the island. And to taxi to the mk1 capsule in the hangar, get off the plane and get Jeb to play the tourist and pose for a picture. I actually didn't put on a ladder, so I had to retract the landing gear, and to get back in with a jetpack assisted hop! Should I post file and pictures?

Wow impressive, I'd like to see a few shots of that.. I didn't think it was possible to get into such a close semi-orbit like that with just a jet engine (Non-Reaper).

Also, I evaluated the points system before I made my flight and I didn't really see a point in going after the SSTO achievement. As it currently stands if you get SSTO your not eligible for Magellan or Flying High points and Flying High alone is 140 if you reach 70k meaning getting SSTO is effectively loosing you 90 points, so you'd be better off not (mind you I think that needs corrected so that SSTO is worth achieving).

Now a good question would be can you double count Magellan for flying around the world twice? because that is quite an achievement in and of itself for something solely jet powered IMO. I made it around once on my flight with about 1/4 tank left so I'd be interested in knowing if that's the case I'm thinking about making another flight with more fuel =P

[Brandano]

Here's the link:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_Tszjgnsur4WVh6ZDBHeGNCNzg/edit?usp=sharing

And here's a ton of piccies:

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It's missing the takeoff because this was actually still a test of the landing gear alignment. I hadn't even renamed the plane. Actually, the linked file is the auto-saved ship file renamed and with the ship name edited.

To fling yourself in orbit put the velocity vector marker 10 degrees above the horizon, and increase throttle to almost full. As you climb over 20000 throttle slowly back to prevent the engine from flaming out, until you are barely above idle at 50000, and still accelerating above 2000 m/s. No rocket engines, so once you are out of the atmosphere you can only sit there and hope the cockpit battery will last (no solar panels either).

[*Aqua*]

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Name: Eierlegende Wollmilchsau (engl. jack of all trades device)

14 parts: 1x Intake, 1x Cockpit, 1x LF Tank, 1x small LFO Tank, 4x wings, 3x gears, 1x jet engine, 2x ant radial engines

(+1 fuel line I forgot to remove, but it wasn't connected properly and had no use anyway)

Score

Success: Take off and fly at least 1 km. +100 Points

Islander: Fly to the Insular Runway. +70 Points - do these points count in my case?

Conservationist: Use under 15 parts. +50 Points

SSTO: Create a single-stage spaceplane. +150 Points

---------------------

= 300 or 370 points

Crashed at the end... do I get a consolation prize?

Somehow the plane behaved weird at the approach. Did the CoM shift to much? Also it didn't stop on the runway, although the brakes were on. I don't know why. Maybe it bumped up a little and glided <1 meter above it.

[godefroi]

Here's my attempt:

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That's (I think) 247, or 347 if you let me count Circumnavigation, even with the botched landing

That's:

Success (+100)

High Flyer (+90) (+57)

Edited April 8, 2014 by godefroi

[PoliticallyCorrectLobster]

Would a hang-glider count as plane with no control surfaces? It swings the engine/fuel/pilot mass back/forward and left/right with 2 robotic hinges

Yes, because that would be an advanced form of thrust-vectoring.

Now a good question would be can you double count Magellan for flying around the world twice?

How about 1.5x?

Should I post file and pictures?

Yes.

Good job everyone! Updating the leaderboard now!

[PoliticallyCorrectLobster]

BTW, you get half credit for an award if you mess up the landing.

[godefroi]

BTW, you get half credit for an award if you mess up the landing.

So, do I get to count Lander as well as Magellan? For another 75 points, a total of 322? Or is it either/or, meaning, you can either get Lander, or Magellan?

[godefroi]

***Players eligible for this are ineligible for Magellan or High Flyer

So, even if I deorbit and land, I still cap out at 250 points?

[Brandano]

Does it count as an ssto if it can't achieve true orbit? My second plane can orbit the world, but it's doomed to reentry since the periapsis can never be outside the atmosphere

[Keldaria]

So, even if I deorbit and land, I still cap out at 250 points?

As it currently stands that seems to be correct which is why I say its not worth doing SSTO. I could easily adjust my plane to hit orbit with a small rocket engine and tank but there is no point IMO

I would recommend to the challenge maker to adjust this achievement to be just 50 points or so but allow them to stack with Fly High and Magellan, Although you should probably limit the magellan bonus 1.5x for 2 round trips max to prevent abuse or something.

Does it count as an ssto if it can't achieve true orbit? My second plane can orbit the world, but it's doomed to reentry since the periapsis can never be outside the atmosphere

I would say no, if your periapsis is less than 70k then its not a true orbit.. dang close for sure but just not quite there.

So, do I get to count Lander as well as Magellan? For another 75 points, a total of 322? Or is it either/or, meaning, you can either get Lander, or Magellan?

I'm not sure what he means by counting half credit for an award by messing up the landing, I wouldn't think you should get any credit for landing achievement if you crashed on landing, however I also wouldn't think you would be penalized on an achievement like Magellan for not safely landing since its possible to prove that you made it around the world. The only achievements I could see the "Half" credit rule for crashing apply for would be the visiting easter egg locations and/or visiting the abandoned airstrip, because you technically did visit these locations, but you messed up the landing.

I kindov want clarification on this as well, because I'm preparing another couple flights, A longer range version of the falcon for additional location visits, and possibly with SSTO functions, and a larger 100 part + craft for that achievement.. which actually now that I think of it brings me to my next question about the rules.

You mention that no use of reaction wheels other than capsules are allowed.. so what about having multiple capsules? I'm currently working on a couple variations of multi-capsule planes to identify which layout would be more stable for flights and I'm just curious if that would be considered against the rules.. mind you I'm not attempting to get ridiculous as currently my 2 designs feature only 2 capsules but I find that 1 capsule just doesn't have enough force to truly manage a larger aircraft with over 100 parts and feel comfortable piloting it.

[Brandano]

I also did think about using multiple capsules as well, it's a trick already seen in career mode to obtain more battery charge early on in the tech tree. Actually, using the 1 place capsule in place of the spaceplane cockpit really helps keeping the weight down, but I like my planes to look nice

[*Aqua*]

Ok, second try! And this time it worked out. It's the same plane from before. I removed the unnecessary fuel line and flew more carefully.

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14 parts: 1x Intake, 1x Cockpit, 1x LF Tank, 1x small LFO Tank, 4x wings, 3x gears, 1x jet engine, 2x ant radial engines

Score

Success: Take off and fly at least 1 km. +100 Points

Lander: Land your plane on the KSC runway. +50 Points

Islander: Fly to the Insular Runway. +70 Points

Easter Bunny: Fly and land at an easter egg. +150 Points (pyramids)

Conservationist: Use under 15 parts. +50 Points

SSTO: Create a single-stage spaceplane. +150 Points

-------------------------------

= 570 points

[Brandano]

Impressive indeed *Aqua*! As Keldaria mentioned you might even decide to ditch the LFO tank and the ant radial engines to get both Magellan (100 pts) and High Flier (90 + 50, if you peak over 70k ) achievements, while losing the SSTO (150 pts) achievement. That's 90 points more than the SSTO achievement alone.

[*Aqua*]

Thanks!

I'm not sure if I have enough fuel for Magellan. The jet engine causes a vortex in the fuel tank.

High Flier will be difficult, too. It needs the right pitch to reach 70 km and I didn't figure it out yet.

I also tried VTOL but failed miserably. I just can't position the upwards engine right without destroying the balance between CoM, CoT and CoL for forward flight. I think it is impossible without mods. (Had some promising success with VTOL engines from B9.)

My current plane maybe have enough fuel to reach a second easter egg for another 150 points. Flight plan would be Island -> KSC2 -> Pyramids -> KSC then. I maybe try that.

[Darren9]

I had to postpone the hang-glider development, seems they're not particularly suited to high-atmosphere hypersonic flight. Instead I made a quad-engine thrust vectoring VTOL, it can also take off/land/fly as a plane. In this particular flight I attained 45Km max altitude, flew a circumnavigation, landed on the runway and then flew to the dirt runway and after attaining a perfect hover above it made a rather hard touchdown with 3 engines detaching, I'll attempt to claim a botched landing at 35 points It could be:

Success - 100

Lander - 50

High Flyer - 90 + 25

Islander (botched) - 35

Magellen - 100

VTOL - 250

For a total of 650 points. (uses Skeppies mini-pack, TV Pizza wings, Robotics and Firespitter)

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On a side note, how can you make an SSTO with no rocket/nuclear? It can only make sub-orbital hops and never attain a true orbit?

Edited April 8, 2014 by Darren9

[Brandano]

*Aqua*, with three intakes and grossly overweight I managed almost 100k, by keeping the prograde indicator at 10° above the horizon from any place above 20k, and reducing throttle as the altitude increased. You can limit the turbojet thrust to get finer control on the throttle at high altitude. As the atmospheric resistance decreases the plane will keep accelerating even when barely above idle at 70k altitude, and you will find your camera in orbit mode almost with no warning. Slowing down is the real challenge, as it can be quite hard to get the thing back under control before it drops under sea level. I am going to try it again without the droptanks and with a single intake to see if I can make another "almost SSTO" hop, though outside the challenge. Oh, and getting there barely used two thirds of a tank, probably less if I had used a more careful climb profile. I think the best option is to zoom above 15k as fast as possible, and try to level off by 20k to a stable climb at reduced thrust.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Brandano

[Keldaria]

Ok, second try! And this time it worked out. It's the same plane from before. I removed the unnecessary fuel line and flew more carefully.

14 parts: 1x Intake, 1x Cockpit, 1x LF Tank, 1x small LFO Tank, 4x wings, 3x gears, 1x jet engine, 2x ant radial engines

Score

Success: Take off and fly at least 1 km. +100 Points

Lander: Land your plane on the KSC runway. +50 Points

Islander: Fly to the Insular Runway. +70 Points

Easter Bunny: Fly and land at an easter egg. +150 Points (pyramids)

Conservationist: Use under 15 parts. +50 Points

SSTO: Create a single-stage spaceplane. +150 Points

-------------------------------

= 570 points

Very nice! I've been reworking my plane a bit and I think I'm going to make another attempt myself to hit some of the easter egg sites, I've also been working on developing a few different versions for things like SSTO and VTOL.. should prove interesting. However Kudos on the SSTO / Conservationist

I had to postpone the hang-glider development, seems they're not particularly suited to high-atmosphere hypersonic flight. Instead I made a quad-engine thrust vectoring VTOL, it can also take off/land/fly as a plane. In this particular flight I attained 45Km max altitude, flew a circumnavigation, landed on the runway and then flew to the dirt runway and after attaining a perfect hover above it made a rather hard touchdown with 3 engines detaching, I'll attempt to claim a botched landing at 35 points It could be:

Success - 100

Lander - 50

High Flyer - 90 + 25

Islander (botched) - 35

Magellen - 100

VTOL - 250

For a total of 650 points. (uses Skeppies mini-pack, TV Pizza wings, Robotics and Firespitter)

Very nice VTOL, I haven't attempted to fly mine yet but I expect that I'll need to tweak a good deal to make it work as intended. But great job on yours and nice point totals you guys just put up.. looks like I'll have my work cut out for me =P

On a side note, how can you make an SSTO with no rocket/nuclear? It can only make sub-orbital hops and never attain a true orbit?

"5. Engine types allowed: Rocket, Jet, Nuclear, and Ion." Rockets, Nuclear and Ion are all allowed by the challenge. The only stipulation is that it has to be able to fly like a plane. However I do question if it is theoretically possible to enter orbit with a plane by speeding up and pushing your Apoptosis to 100k or so on the other side of the planet to give you some room to work with, then making a last min vertical burn with a VTOL system of sorts to gain enough vertical acceleration to push your periapsis above 70k. In theory it "Could" work I suppose.. but it would strand you in orbit... I kindov want to try it to be honest

[Brandano]

Actually no, it won't. It will just make the parabolic trajectory steeper, and the reentry angle will follow suite. You can reach a 100k apoapsis and then circularize with a rocket engine, and it doesn't really take much to circularize, as Aqua showed with his two ant engines. On the subject of ant engines, I do have a spaceplane that is ONLY control surfaces, so definitely not eligible for this challenge, here: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/69053-My-tiniest-rocket-plane

[*Aqua*]

3rd try, 2nd plane. I had a great idea to modify the plane to a VTOL. But just have a look at the pictures.

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Score

Success: Take off and fly at least 1 km. +100 Points

Lander: Land your plane on the KSC runway. +50 Points

Islander: Fly to the Insular Runway. +70 Points

Easter Bunny: Fly and land at an easter egg. 2x +150 Points (pyramids & KSC 2)

Conservationist: Use under 15 parts. +50 Points

SSTO: Create a single-stage spaceplane. +150 Points

VTOL: Create a (functional) VTOL that can also take off and land horizontally.(No Parachutes!) +250 Points

-------------------------

= 970 points

Edit: Incorrect, see http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/75028-Fly-a-plane-using-only-capsule-torque-and-thrust-vectoring%21?p=1077822&viewfull=1#post1077822

I guess that's the max you can achieve with this plane. There was just a drop left in the tank.

Edited April 8, 2014 by *Aqua*

[Darren9]

^ It doesn't appear capable of horizontal take off or landing at the moment *Aqua*, not that the weightless/drag-less stock 'gears will change much but I think you'll need them attached, then there's the problem of it can't land one way then take off the other (or vice-verse), it could be judged a "loop-hole" switching to a pure vertical only mode. I'm not certain of the "stack-ability" of Easter eggs either, I think we need an official judgement? Nice score as it stands though.

I think I could maybe make a full lap back to the runway, then dirt runway, then pyramids, then KSC2 and end there. Also a full circumnavigation with stopping off at Easter eggs on the way isn't explicitly excluded at the moment. Could I get a decision on these as well?

[Keldaria]

^ It doesn't appear capable of horizontal take off or landing at the moment *Aqua*, not that the weightless/drag-less stock 'gears will change much but I think you'll need them attached, then there's the problem of it can't land one way then take off the other (or vice-verse), it could be judged a "loop-hole" switching to a pure vertical only mode. I'm not certain of the "stack-ability" of Easter eggs either, I think we need an official judgement? Nice score as it stands though.

I think I could maybe make a full lap back to the runway, then dirt runway, then pyramids, then KSC2 and end there. Also a full circumnavigation with stopping off at Easter eggs on the way isn't explicitly excluded at the moment. Could I get a decision on these as well?

I was wondering that myself, but I think intent counts. If your intent is to build a rocket with a couple winglets and call it a plane then it should and would be disqualified, but that doesn't appear to be the intent of this design and even if it doesn't have the landing gear to support a horizontal landing, it is at least clear that this design is capable of horizontal flight and would be capable of taking off and landing if given a few wheels.

As for the stackability of Easter egg achievements, I just assumed they would stack so I never questioned it myself, but you do make a fair point so clarification would be appreciated because I was planning to stack a few on my next flight attempt. However I would assume circumnavigation w/ Easter eggs on the way is acceptable, I see this as only natural to build upon your achievements in an efficient pattern. The only thing I think should be considered a violation of the intent of the challenge would be if you built a refueling rig and refueled your plane back at KSC so you could hit even more Easter eggs locations to boost your score. Your score should only be accumulated by 1 flight and limited to the fuel/resources you bring with you. Drop tanks would be fine because you carry those from the beginning but refueling in the middle even tho it technically doesn't go against the rules currently should be banned because I don't think that was the intent of the challenge but I could be wrong.

Also quick question, I've been considering the conservationist achievement to be 14 parts or less since it is listed as "Under 15 Parts". Is that correct or is it 15 parts or fewer? Not wanting to lower the scores of others or anything, but rather needing to know if i'm allowed to add that last widget or not =)

Edited April 8, 2014 by Keldaria

[*Aqua*]

It doesn't appear capable of horizontal take off or landing at the moment

Does a VTOL need to be able to start horizontally? The name stands for 'vertical takeoff and land'.

>> Create a (functional) VTOL that can also take off and land horizontally.

Damn!

Adjusted score

Success: Take off and fly at least 1 km. +100 Points

Lander: Land your plane on the KSC runway. +50 Points

Islander: Fly to the Insular Runway. +70 Points

Easter Bunny: Fly and land at an easter egg. 2x +150 Points (pyramids & KSC 2)

Conservationist: Use under 15 parts. +50 Points

SSTO: Create a single-stage spaceplane. +150 Points

-------------------------

= 720 points

I don't think VTOLs with stock parts are possible. Ok, time to use use B9.

Edit: I just looked at the B9 jet engines. I can't use them, they are much more efficient (like 10 times!) than the stock ones. It's cheating. VTOL isn't possible...

I'm not certain of the "stack-ability" of Easter eggs either

Me neither.

Edited April 8, 2014 by *Aqua*

[Brandano]

Hmm, you can take off horizontally, land vertically, then take off vertically... you just need to add another set of landing gears and give it an action group binding.

[*Aqua*]

But then I lose the Conservationist award. I can't swap 3 parts for the gears.

Right, VTOL gives 250 points and Conservationist only 50 points. But I can't get bot awards at the same time. Unsatisfying.