Single Launch to Eve and return Challenge

[EdFred]

Here is the challenge:

Depart Kerbin, land on Eve, plant a flag, depart Eve, and return to Kerbin - in a single launch from KSC

Here are the rules:

Rules

You get a single launch from KSC

No docking with any bases or refueling orbiters already in orbit, on the Mun, Minmus, around Eve etc...

Everything on this mission is contained to a single launch from KSC.

Interpret this as you start a brand new sandbox scenario and this is the only launch from Kerbin you can perform for the challenge.

In fact, start a new Sandbox mode for this. (see points for why)

No longer necessary.

Mods allowed

Kerbal Engineer, MechJeb, Kerbal Alarm Clock

Why? That's all I've used, and I don't want someone modding up an engine with a TWR of 1000 with an Atmo ISP of 100,000

No hacks/cheats

This includes infiniglide, part clipping, infinite fuel, hacking gravity, Hyperedit, etc.

No editing of your save files to refuel your craft, etc.

The over use of massless parts to power your craft is prohibited. (i.e. massless batteries plus massless solar panels plus xenon engines is not allowed)

You may use them to maintain electrical charge for your module(s)/SAS, however.

Anything else that I think is circumventing normal operations. Subjective? Yes, but it's my challenge.

Your Kerbal must be in an enclosed vessel for the descent and ascent to Eve

No strapping your Kerbal(s) to the EAS-1 Command seat for this challenge.

No action groups or manual decoupling allowed in lieu of staging

Why? See scoring for details

Docking ports may not be used in lieu of decouplers.

Docking ports are allowed for an Apollo style descent, landing, and ascent. Not for jettisoning spent fuel tanks/boosters/engines/landing gear, etc...

ALL Kerbal(s) must return alive to the surface of Kerbin

No rescues allowed - remember you only get a single launch to do this mission.

Screenshots *highly* suggested

On launchpad at Kerbin showing vehicle weight.

On the surface of Eve with your Kerbal(s) on the surface of Eve, showing the flag, the elevation, and your craft.

Back on the surface of Kerbin.

Any other screenshots you care to show for various parts of the mission.

If your claim sounds outlandish, screenshots will be required.

That should just about cover the rules, now on to the scoring.

Scoring

Start with 1000pts

For every stage above Stage 0 deduct 5 points

If you can make a SSTELABTK (Single Stage to Eve Landing and Back to Kerbin) you are amazing, or cheated.

You may move stages around, but you may not create or delete any stages once you leave the VAB/SPH

For each different model engine beyond one, deduct 10 points

If you used all aerospikes to get there and back - deduct nothing

(Engines used -1)*10 = pts deducted

Part Count

Deduct 1 point for every 10 parts.

324 parts used = 32.4 point deduction

Elevation Departure Points

You may land anywhere you want and relocate for departure but...

Departing from:

0m-500m:

Add

5 point for every 10m below 500m

If you landed at 312m (500-312)/10 = 18.8 * 5 = 94 point addition

500m+

Deduct

2 points for every 10m above 500

If you departed from 4567m (4567-500 = 4067/10 = 406.7*2 = 813.4 point deduction

Yeah, you want to land under 500m for this one.

Weight Penalty

What does your craft weigh pre-launch at KSC?

Deduct 1 point for every 10t

If MechJeb/KER/KSP show different values, the lowest one is the one you may use.

Year 4 Day 140

Remember sandbox mode and starting fresh?

Want to get some points back?

Arrive back on Kerbin before this date, and add 5 points per day, deduct 5 for every day afterwards.

Why this date? It was close to my baseline test date return for minimum dV spent - and I wasted some time in Eve orbit aerobraking

If you want to spend extra dV to not wait for ideal phase angle, go right ahead. But that's a lot of extra fuel to burn...

This is in Kerbin time. (1d = 6h, 1y = 400ish days)

This section removed after it was pointed out that getting there faster would cancel out every other part of the challenge.

Bonus points for more Kerbals.

For each additional Kerbal that plants a flag on Eve add 125 points

Also, no dropping off 10 Kerbals on Eve, to get 1250 points back and leaving them there.

Remember, if they leave KSC, they must return alive to Kerbin's surface.

Yep, it's possible to score over 1000 or under 0.

I think that should just about cover it, and an open to any other suggestions for the challenge.

There are two categories:

Pure Rockets

Use no lifting surfaces of any kind. Winglets may be used to help keep directional control for launches

1. Morlock 1034.0285

2. EdFred 882.8835

3. Emod 875.5

4.

5.

Hybrid

Anything that uses lifting surfaces to increase altitude for any part of the mission.

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

I did a test run on it minus the screen shots, and would have scored as follows:

Pure Rockets

18 stages beyond 0:

-90pts

6 different engine models:

(6-1)*10 = -50

Part count:

468 parts

-46.8pts

Elevation: 72m

(500-72)/10 * 5 = +214

Weight at KSC departure

3674.1t

3674.1/10 = -367.41

Time Frame:

I returned to Kerbin's surface on Y4 D148

-40pts

Extra Kerbals planting flags besides Jeb:

0 * 125 = 0 points

Total: 1000 - 90 - 50 - 46.8 + 214 - 367.41 - 40 + 0:

659.79 overall pts

I am planning a couple tweaks to my craft, so I am not placing myself on the leaderboard yet.

Good Luck, none of us are counting on you!

Edited July 15, 2014 by EdFred

[rtxoff]

So an seperate landing vehicle that undocks, lands and docks again after takeoff from Eve is not allowed because of the staging rule ????

[EdFred]

So an seperate landing vehicle that undocks, lands and docks again after takeoff from Eve is not allowed because of the staging rule ????

That would be legal, as docking ports are not staged. Unless you used a decoupler to separate the craft...which makes it difficult to re-dock. I edited the rules to clarify.

Edited May 4, 2014 by EdFred

[rtxoff]

I just do not understand then what the difference is by decoupling a stage manually or not? It is not like someone would spare stages through that. It really does not matter if i press space for staging or click on the decoupler and do it. The number of stages will be the same.

Edit: Maybe formulate it like this: Manually decoupling or actions groups for decoupling allowed as long as every decoupling counts as a stage. (including docking ports decoupling)

Because docking ports decoupling is also a stage in my opinion.

Edited May 4, 2014 by gpisic

[EdFred]

I just do not understand then what the difference is by decoupling a stage manually or not? It is not like someone would spare stages through that. It really does not matter if i press space for staging or click on the decoupler and do it. The number of stages will be the same.

Edit: Maybe formulate it like this: Manually decoupling or actions groups for decoupling allowed as long as every decoupling counts as a stage. (including docking ports decoupling)

Because docking ports decoupling is also a stage in my opinion.

I look at stages as the number of orange groups on the right side of the VAB and the left side while flying, numbered 0 - (in my case) 18

Docking ports don't show up there. So it is not a stage.

Imagine this scenario:

Someone puts all of their engines and decouplers (TT-38s/Rockomax,TR-18/etc. ) into a single stage and controls every jettison/new engine group firing with action groups, or manually right clicks the decoupler to avoid taking a stage penalty, or to declare their vehicle as an SSTO.

Edited May 4, 2014 by EdFred

[NecroBones]

I just recently did an Eve mission that fits the description, but didn't have a challenge in mind at the time. I'll have to work out my score later. But I'll gladly share the images:

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[Red Iron Crown]

You should probably clarify in the rules that docking ports cannot be used in lieu of decouplers. If I attached all the stages with docking ports and action grouped them, I would be within the letter of the rules without adding anything in the way of stages. I understand that would be against the spirit of the challenge, I just think you should head off rules-lawyering before someone exploits it.

[Brandano]

Or you could subtract a little point for every docking port used, since using them to replace decouplers will likely require more of them. Actually, subtracting points for decouplers or docking ports probably would be fairer than for staging, which is rather arbitrary.

[EdFred]

You should probably clarify in the rules that docking ports cannot be used in lieu of decouplers. If I attached all the stages with docking ports and action grouped them, I would be within the letter of the rules without adding anything in the way of stages. I understand that would be against the spirit of the challenge, I just think you should head off rules-lawyering before someone exploits it.

Rules edited.

Or you could subtract a little point for every docking port used, since using them to replace decouplers will likely require more of them. Actually, subtracting points for decouplers or docking ports probably would be fairer than for staging, which is rather arbitrary.

Isn't everything arbitrary?

[rtxoff]

On the shipexchange there is also a very nice design able to do this challenge:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/78852-Want-to-go-to-Eve-and-back-Try-this

[metaphor]

Are you using Kerbin time or Earth time for Year/Day of landing?

Which solar panels and batteries are massless? I thought they all had some mass.

Does the Kerbal have to be in an enclosed capsule on the way from Kerbin to Eve, or just for landing/takeoff from Eve?

[Red Iron Crown]

The OX-STAT, Z-100, and Z-400 are all massless.

[EdFred]

Are you using Kerbin time or Earth time for Year/Day of landing?

Which solar panels and batteries are massless? I thought they all had some mass.

Does the Kerbal have to be in an enclosed capsule on the way from Kerbin to Eve, or just for landing/takeoff from Eve?

In the upper left corner of the screens there is a clock. It will show MET (mission time) and UT (universal/game time). The reading of UT is the date to use. (Click on the clock to change between MET/UT)

I suppose if you want your Kerbal to ride outside in a chair to Eve, I suppose you can do that. But I'm betting he's going to be pretty p.o'ed being made to ride Aunt Edna style while there's an empty capsule he could be riding in.

(bonus points to the first person that gets the Aunt Edna reference)

[Red Iron Crown]

(bonus points to the first person that gets the Aunt Edna reference)

National Lampoon's Vacation. What do I win?

[EdFred]

you can start with 1005 points instead of 1000.

[Red Iron Crown]

I have another scoring question: If you use sepratrons for clearing used stages away, do they count against your engine type count? Assuming they're not used for lifting anywhere else.

[EdFred]

I have another scoring question: If you use sepratrons for clearing used stages away, do they count against your engine type count? Assuming they're not used for lifting anywhere else.

They do count against your engine type. RCS does not - mostly because RCS would be useless for Eve.

[metaphor]

In the upper left corner of the screens there is a clock. It will show MET (mission time) and UT (universal/game time). The reading of UT is the date to use. (Click on the clock to change between MET/UT))

Yeah, but there's an option in the settings menu to change between Kerbin time (6 hour days, ~400 day years) or Earth time (24 hour days, 365 day years). MET and UT can be shown in either one of those two ways. Which one do you want to use? It could make a huge difference in the score (several thousand points).

Anyway, here's my prototype lander, 90 tons with 12.1 km/s delta-v and seven stages.

Is it OK to use the kerbal's jetpack to finish orbit if it's outside Eve's atmosphere?

Edited May 5, 2014 by metaphor

[EdFred]

Yeah, but there's an option in the settings menu to change between Kerbin time (6 hour days, ~400 day years) or Earth time (24 hour days, 365 day years). MET and UT can be shown in either one of those two ways. Which one do you want to use?

Kerbin Time is what I use and what should be used for this challenge.

[tylerthehun]

Welp, I just got my ship into low Eve orbit with way more fuel than I thought I'd have at this point. I was expecting to crash my transfer stage into the surface but it's still about 1/3 full, so I kept it. Unfortunately I just noticed one of the fuel lines on my lander has come undone. This makes me extra pissed because after my first launch to LKO I noticed ALL the lander's fuel lines were disconnected, so I had to fix them all and relaunch it. I don't really want to relaunch at this point so I hope I can keep it balanced manually during ascent, although I'm still not 100% certain this thing can get off Eve in the first place. Wish me luck.

Edit:

It seems this is the end of the road for this mission. In addition to the disconnected fuel line, I broke off one of my ascent engines on landing. Two flags down, but nobody's coming home today. Time for round 2.

Edited May 6, 2014 by tylerthehun

[rtxoff]

The OX-STAT, Z-100, and Z-400 are all massless.

I just checked with my install and no, they are not massless for me.

Z-400 is 0.02t

Z-100 is 0.005t

OX-STAT is also 0.005t

i think you might have a mod that makes them massless for you.

[EdFred]

.005 is "massless." Add 100 of them to your craft and see if the mass changes. Same goes for ladders and a bunch of other parts.

[rtxoff]

Hmmm i tried that out... looks like a bug...

But what about the drag? If u spam this parts the drag will increase right?

[Red Iron Crown]

Massless parts show as having mass in the VAB/SPH part description, but they don't in game. As drag is calculated from mass in stock KSP aero, the parts are dragless, too. Off hand, the massless parts are: struts, fuel lines, lights, ladders, OX-STAT panels, Z-100 & Z-400 batteries, octagonal and cubic octagonal struts, aircraft landing gear, the 3.75m decoupler, RCS thrusters, and some science parts. There may be some I've forgotten, too.

It's not a bug, there's a line in the .cfg that governs this behavior. Why it works this way is the subject of some debate.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Red Iron Crown

[EdFred]

Is it OK to use the kerbal's jetpack to finish orbit if it's outside Eve's atmosphere?

That would be interesting to see how he lands safely on Kerbin. Or even leaves Eve's SOI.