Biomes on Minmus and Kerbin are broken

[DeadMG]

The biomes on Minmus are hideously, ludicrously, overpowered.

Minmus is so close, it's easy to get to with a large lander, and the thing's very low gravity makes it cheap to get around. You can visit all nine or ten biomes on Minmus (plus the two orbital ones) in a single mission easily. This yields a truly ridiculous amount of science. You can get more visiting Minmus with 3 goos and 3 mat labs with a basic lander (ditch two in orbit after collecting upper and lower) than you can get for visiting and landing on both Ike and Duna with an experiment cleaner, which requires a far bigger rocket, re-docking your lander and stuff like that.

The Mun biomes aren't so bad because getting around on the Mun is annoying- the relatively high gravity (at least in comparison to Minmus), poorer visibility due to the colour, and rougher terrain, makes it relatively expensive to visit more than a couple of biomes in a single trip, especially when considering the increased fuel you need to get off it.

The Kerbin biomes are the other way around. They yield so little science that once you've researched the first 3-4 technologies, you basically have to get to Mun or Minmus to get any decent science income. Grubbing around on Kerbin for biomes takes forever and yields virtually nothing- especially since you cannot automatically harvest the biomes but have to spam the EVA report button. Compared to building a slightly bigger rocket and going to Mun, Minmus or solar orbit, the biomes on Kerbin are useless.

Frankly, I don't feel that players want to hang around on Kerbin. I would just double or triple the science for, say, lower and upper Kerbin orbit, then remove the Kerbin biomes.

Minmus needs to have the number of biomes or the science awarded drastically reduced to bring it more in line with the other options.

Finally, I feel like the biome information available to the player is way too limited. It's obvious that there are different biomes, but how many, where they are, and if you just entered one isn't presented. For example, Gilly's "Low" is way below 1x timewarp and nearly at the point where you start smacking into the highest elevations, but it'll take more than one orbit (at 1x) before you discover how low "Low" actually is. I feel like this information should be more readily presented.

[NERVAfan]

I like the fact that there is way more science than you need so that you aren't pushed into visiting everything -- having "too much" science lets you choose your own path/order of doing things.

[allmhuran]

It does seem odd that the Mun and Minmus can provide more science than Duna and Ike. But that's only because Duna and Ike don't have biomes. If they did have biomes, which they may do in future, then they would indeed be worth more since they have much higher multipliers.

Whether adding more biomes (in their current form) would actually be a good thing or not.... is a different discussion

[Sirrobert]

Actually, eventually all planets will get Biomes.

And all will be 'overpowered' according to the OP

Go mod if it you think you're getting to much science.

And on the Kerbin Biomes. Noones forcing you to go everywhere. They are there to allow you to nick abit of science each time you land

[Kasuha]

Current science is not designed to be challenging.

I believe things will change once money are introduced

[HeadHunter67]

You can visit all nine or ten biomes on Minmus (plus the two orbital ones) in a single mission easily. This yields a truly ridiculous amount of science.

...which you don't need, because you have already unlocked most or all of the tree by the time you can visit all Minmus biomes in a single mission.

As for the Kerbin biomes, you can unlock a pretty big chunk of the tech tree without ever leaving home - and that's how it should be. How many extraterrestrial missions did we do before we developed the technology to land on the Moon?

[Eric S]

I like the fact that there is way more science than you need so that you aren't pushed into visiting everything -- having "too much" science lets you choose your own path/order of doing things.

True, the most annoying part of playing Better Than Starting Manned is that it's been tuned to the point that you're just about required to get almost all the science along the way, leaving few real choices along the way. Or at least until you can start doing probes to other planets.

It does seem odd that the Mun and Minmus can provide more science than Duna and Ike. But that's only because Duna and Ike don't have biomes. If they did have biomes, which they may do in future, then they would indeed be worth more since they have much higher multipliers.

Whether adding more biomes (in their current form) would actually be a good thing or not.... is a different discussion

I'll agree on both points, though I doubt a multi-biome mission to Duna is as practical as one to Minmus. However, with biomes in both places, it will probably be fairly easy to do a combined Duna/Ike mission that excedes the science return of a 9-biome Minmus mission.

...which you don't need, because you have already unlocked most or all of the tree by the time you can visit all Minmus biomes in a single mission.

Not quite true, I hit all 9 surface biomes on Minmus as soon as I unlock fuel lines. Which is not a complaint, BTW, as I'm probably one of the more experienced KSP players.

[Raven.]

There's a few things to take into consideration. For one, KSP is an incomplete game that is still in an alpha state. There's going to be balance issues, especially considering that there are aspects of career mode not yet introduced, such as budgets. Yes, you can build a big, very large lander that can mine Minmus in one go. But... With budgets, you might not be able to afford that large lander until later in the game. Especially if it is not reusable.

Like people have mentioned, additional planets will soon have more biomes. When this happens, there will be a much larger pool of science points available. Also count the fact that Squad has planned (but have not said anything about in a while) additional planets that would add even more science points.

So on balancing science points, the jury's still out. And they're going to be for a while.

[BudgetHedgehog]

I'll agree on both points, though I doubt a multi-biome mission to Duna is as practical as one to Minmus.

The day Duna gets biomes will be the day I hope rovers start becoming useful and usable.

[Eric S]

There's a few things to take into consideration. For one, KSP is an incomplete game that is still in an alpha state. There's going to be balance issues, especially considering that there are aspects of career mode not yet introduced, such as budgets. Yes, you can build a big, very large lander that can mine Minmus in one go. But... With budgets, you might not be able to afford that large lander until later in the game. Especially if it is not reusable.

I strongly agree with the first part of this. While discussing balance issues is reasonable, it's really too early for some of the absolute statements that get thrown around to be that reliable. About as reliable as I think we can get is the statement that the default game won't be that challenging for those that have played the game for years because it still needs to be playable by people that have just started the game.

Also, I may have misremembered my typical Minmus lander, it may have been hitting 4-6 biomes instead of all 9, but it wasn't that much more expensive (at current cost balances, I expect that they'll rebalance the parts cost) than my minimal Minmus landers.

The day Duna gets biomes will be the day I hope rovers start becoming useful and usable.

I'll second this. At this time, the only non-RP reason to land a rover is to drive to different biomes, which means either landing close to a boundary between one or more biomes, or a lot of patience. I have, exactly once, created a craft capable of both driving and short orbital hops that managed to hit all 15 Munar biomes in a single trip. I never intend to spend that much time driving again.

[BudgetHedgehog]

I'll second this. At this time, the only non-RP reason to land a rover is to drive to different biomes, which means either landing close to a boundary between one or more biomes, or a lot of patience. I have, exactly once, created a craft capable of both driving and short orbital hops that managed to hit all 15 Munar biomes in a single trip. I never intend to spend that much time driving again.

To be fair though, driving in higher gravity environments is easier.

[LethalDose]

I don't know that I'd use the term "overpowered", but I do think the amount of science that can be gained from Minmus is unbalanced.

I agree with Raven:

There's a few things to take into consideration. For one, KSP is an incomplete game that is still in an alpha state. There's going to be balance issues, especially considering that there are aspects of career mode not yet introduced, such as budgets. Yes, you can build a big, very large lander that can mine Minmus in one go. But... With budgets, you might not be able to afford that large lander until later in the game. Especially if it is not reusable.

Like people have mentioned, additional planets will soon have more biomes. When this happens, there will be a much larger pool of science points available. Also count the fact that Squad has planned (but have not said anything about in a while) additional planets that would add even more science points.

So on balancing science points, the jury's still out. And they're going to be for a while.

The game is in alpha/development/unfinished/whatever, and game balance should be one of the last things addressed in development.

That being said, I hope it is addressed before release because it's super easy to max out the tree just going to Minmus. IMO, this de-incentivizes leaving the Kerbin system early. I think it would be more challenging and more fun for there to be a stronger push to move beyond Kerbin's SOI earlier.

[Joonatan1998]

To be fair though, driving in higher gravity environments is easier.

high gravity = large planet (or moon) = longer distances between biomes.

[coolitic]

It's not overpowered, it is simply a better starting option.

[Eric S]

I think it would be more challenging and more fun for there to be a stronger push to move beyond Kerbin's SOI earlier.

I'll agree with the idea, but I'm not sure science return should be what encourages that. Maybe budget, definitely reputation, should reward more "aggressive" exploration. Of course, that's getting back to the idea that we're playing an unfinished game.

[DeadMG]

...which you don't need, because you have already unlocked most or all of the tree by the time you can visit all Minmus biomes in a single mission.

Are you kidding? All you need is radial/stack decouplers, the smallest solar panels, a small Rockomax tank and the 909 engine. You can probably get by without the Rockomax tank, it just makes it a bit easier. You don't need to go anywhere near the vast, vast majority of the tech tree. Visiting Minmus is what gets you unlocking all the tech tree. I didn't even need fuel lines.

I had to visit upper and lower of Eve, Gilly, and Moho to best the science return of Minmus.

It's not overpowered, it is simply a better starting option.

It's not overpowered, it's just by far and away the most science-efficient thing you can ever do by a thousand miles such that it removes all choice and option from the game.

Edited June 4, 2014 by DeadMG

[Sirrobert]

It's not overpowered, it's just by far and away the most science-efficient thing you can ever do by a thousand miles such that it removes all choice and option from the game.

Really?

So allowing you more than enough science, and thus letting you pick where you get it, REMOVES choice?

So what happends if you only get a little bit of science, and are forced to visit other planets in order to complete it? Does that give you more choice?

[DeadMG]

It gives you a choice if you have a choice of where to go. It removes choice if you don't have a choice of where to go because one option is clearly vastly superior to the others. The issue isn't about how much science you get *in general*, it's about this particular source clearly being the most effective by miles.

[Sirrobert]

The option being superior doesn't matter if you don't need whatever it is you are getting with that option.

Sure if your entire goal was grinding out as much science as possible, than it would be a problem. But it's not. Getting more science is simply a way to get further. And you don't need a full techtree to get out of the Kerbin System.

The entire point of KSP is flying further. Go fly further. Want some more advanced parts? Grab it from Minmus. Than fly further again

[Red Iron Crown]

Things will likely change a bit as biomes are added to other bodies, and you might also be exchanging science for money or reputation.

[NERVAfan]

It gives you a choice if you have a choice of where to go. It removes choice if you don't have a choice of where to go because one option is clearly vastly superior to the others. The issue isn't about how much science you get *in general*, it's about this particular source clearly being the most effective by miles.

I hardly think it removes choice. Personally I don't go to Minmus that often -- while Mun takes more delta-v to land on and return from, it's well within the range of rockets I'm comfortable building, and I find it easier because I can actually see the Mun rise above the horizon and thus know when to burn to get there. For Minmus I have to guesstimate it from map view. I can get to the Mun every attempt, but I have maybe a 50% (if that) success rate on getting Minmus encounters.

Also, the couple of times I did land on Minmus, I ended up on really extreme slopes, which was also annoying.

Minmus, yeah, gives you more science for a given delta-v, but unless you are specifically trying for that kind of efficiency, I really don't see why it matters... different playstyles, I guess.

[HeadHunter67]

Are you kidding? All you need is radial/stack decouplers, the smallest solar panels, a small Rockomax tank and the 909 engine.

Not if you expect to do it all "in a single mission" as the OP said. You can get to Minmus with just the first couple of nodes - but if you want to do it all in a single mission, you're going to want more than just those crummy little parts.

But hey, if you're able to actually build a ship that can mine an entire moon for science with the basic parts, then you deserve that massive yield of research, and honestly, such a skilled player has no room to complain about easily overcoming that challenge.

And let's not pretend it's the "only choice" if you can build a biome hopper with just those parts. I'm sure you could just as easily make something that goes to Duna or wherever, since you already know how to build such a craft.

[Eric S]

And let's not pretend it's the "only choice" if you can build a biome hopper with just those parts. I'm sure you could just as easily make something that goes to Duna or wherever, since you already know how to build such a craft.

This is a very valid point. Anyone that can build a craft that can hit half of Minmus' biomes in a single trip can get to Duna and Ike with the same tech. When/if biomes get added to Duna and Ike, then we'll have a better idea of how well the rewards are balanced.

[DeadMG]

Every biome on Minmus, including upper and lower orbit, one trip, low tech. The first time I used fuel ducts so you have a little more oomph to spare if things go wrong and a couple niceties like ladders that I cut to account for lack of ducts, doing them all here is fairly tight, but as you can see, it's quite low tech. The rocket isn't a complex or large design, it's extremely simple. It's the 101 of how to build a bigger rocket with radial decouplers.

As for going to Duna and Ike, I doubt I could do it without fuel ducts. You can't get BACK from Duna and Ike on this tech level. Getting off Duna is way too expensive, by the time you've done it you've got nothing left. The rockets don't scale high enough without fuel ducts and atomic engines. But that's not the point, because going to Duna/Ike takes forever compared to Minmus, yields less science, and would require considerably more skill.

Edited June 5, 2014 by DeadMG

[Sirrobert]

http://i.imgur.com/4AXLXNu.png

Every biome on Minmus, including upper and lower orbit, one trip, low tech. The first time I used fuel ducts so you have a little more oomph to spare if things go wrong and a couple niceties like ladders that I cut to account for lack of ducts, doing them all here is fairly tight, but as you can see, it's quite low tech. The rocket isn't a complex or large design, it's extremely simple. It's the 101 of how to build a bigger rocket with radial decouplers.

As for going to Duna and Ike, I doubt I could do it without fuel ducts. You can't get BACK from Duna and Ike on this tech level. Getting off Duna is way too expensive, by the time you've done it you've got nothing left. The rockets don't scale high enough without fuel ducts and atomic engines. But that's not the point, because going to Duna/Ike takes forever compared to Minmus, yields less science, and would require considerably more skill.

Are you sure about that?

I count 3 material bays on that ship. That's 3 biomes.

2 of the bays need to be ditched in order to land. So those 2 are only for upper and lower orbit. And they have to be transmitted, so that's only a portion of the science.

So, please explain. How do you milk several biomes in a single launch with only 1 set of science equipment?

For illustration: there are 9 biomes ON minmus. So you either need 9 sets, or a science lab