High fantasy's infinitely-sized planes defy the laws of physics!(Joke Proof)

[gutza1]

[trolling]

I have found that a person can defy the second law of thermodynamics in the infinitely-sized planes of high fantasy like in Dungeons & Dragons. The proof is as follows: Assuming that a plane is infinitely-sized, we can say that each plane contains an infinite amount of matter. Therefore, if all the matter in the plane has mass-energy, we can assume that each plane has an infinite amount of energy. Since infinity plus or minus something is still the same number (look up the infinite hotel if you doubt this), creating or destroying energy in the plane will not change the amount of total energy in the plane. Therefore, in another plane, we can create or destroy energy without being prevented from doing so by the second law of thermodynamics. QED.

[/trolling]

Note: This "proof" is just a joke used to make fun of D&D. Do not take this seriously, and do not rage about any errors I have made while composing this "proof".

Edited June 8, 2014 by gutza1
Fixed an error.

[Ralathon]

[nerd mode]

But the second law of thermodynamics is concerned with entropy, not conservation of energy. Entropy in a closed system must increase, since the plane is a closed but infinite system (ignoring interplanar portals) entropy within the system must still increase, so this does not give you a free energy pass. If you want free energy you need some kind of energy gradient. A good idea would be to open a portal between the elemental planes of fire and ice and use the temperature difference to drive a heat engine. Because both planes are infinite this gives you infinite free energy.

[/nerd mode]

[Luis]

I'm pretty sure Dragons break a few laws of physics themselves. ^^

[Javster]

"You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later"

[SargeRho]

I'm pretty sure Dragons break a few laws of physics themselves. ^^

There is no reason why animals couldn't produce chemicals that ignite when exposed to air, or multiple chemicals that ignite upon being combined.

[Luis]

There are lots of reasons why they couldn't fly. At least not as normally depicted in D&D. Also, aren't they supposed to be magical?

[G'th]

Considering we can design massive planes (about the size of your typical mob dragon no less) that would definitely weigh MUCH more than those kinds of dragons, I don't think its outside the realm of feasibility that they could fly, especially if they're closer related to birds (which they'd have to be). No reason for dragons to be physically heavy. But thats for the wyvern type of dragon. With them the only real issue with their possibility of existing is why such an animal would evolve heavy unnecessary scales and whether or not the food it would need to consume would be sustainable.

[ZetaX]

[trolling]

Since all infinities are alike

Offtopic, but: they are not. There are actually more kinds of infinity (aka cardinal numbers) than any given infinity.

[TheDataMiner]

There is no reason why animals couldn't produce chemicals that ignite when exposed to air, or multiple chemicals that ignite upon being combined.

I want any genetic Engineers in the crowd to start working on this now! NOW I SAY!! NOW!!!

[NERVAfan]

There is no reason why animals couldn't produce chemicals that ignite when exposed to air, or multiple chemicals that ignite upon being combined.

Yeah. The bombardier beetle already uses a reaction involving hydrogen peroxide to produce steam...

Heinlein used dragons that produce methane and ignite it in "Glory Road".

As for flight... I think you'd need better power production than normal animal muscles can do. Yes, planes weighing hundreds of tons can fly just fine, but they're not wing-flappers, and they use very high energy content fuel.

Pterosaurs got very big (10+ meter wingspans for Quetzalcoatlus and Hatzegopteryx... assuming they're not the same animal) but were extremely lightly built (maybe 200-250 kg???) Multi-ton dragons are trickier. I wouldn't be surprised if those big pterosaurs were pushing the limits for flying animals with conventional muscles in earth gravity and atmosphere (of course, people said the same thing about Pteranodon before they discovered Quetzalcoatlus, so...)

[Klingon Admiral]

In doubt: Wizards did it. The Elder Scrolls got away with huge dragons by making each and every one of them a potent reality warper. The great strength of all fantastic stories (including both fantasy and science fiction) is that it can make humans face conditions that aren't apparent in the real world and explore how the human mind and society would react to those changes. Of course, most writers are too lazy to consider this.

[Skyler4856]

There is no reason why animals couldn't produce chemicals that ignite when exposed to air, or multiple chemicals that ignite upon being combined.

Water and sodium, would be an excellent candidate.

[Comrade Jenkens]

There is no reason why animals couldn't produce chemicals that ignite when exposed to air, or multiple chemicals that ignite upon being combined.

Hydrogen perhaps? Though how would it ignite it?

I've always pictured dragons built in a roughly similar way to pterosaurs so theoretically that may be possible.

[User Unrelated]

Just don't put a portable hole inside another portable hole. All bets are off when that happens.

My DM also has a tendency to create devices that break the laws of conservation of matter (and energy... at the same time), and it makes me twitch and squirm whenever he creates a new one... I mean, yeah, it's a fantasy realm (this particular campaign being Neo-Tokyo mech-world) but that's one thing that you just don't do...

And in my world... Russia just declared war on Japan, so this should be interesting, probably some prodding joke at international tensions at the moment.

Edited June 8, 2014 by User Unrelated

[Camacha]

Since all infinities are alike

This is actually false Imagine an infinite series of numbers, counting up from 1. So, 1, 2 3, 4 et cetera. Then imagine the same, except that the set only contains the odd numbers, so 1, 3, 5, 7 et cetera. You now have two infinite series of numbers of which one contains half the numbers of the other. Yet both a infinite.

Not all infinities are equal, yet all are infinite. Science. Or math, whatever floats your buoyant vehicle of choice.

There is no reason why animals couldn't produce chemicals that ignite when exposed to air, or multiple chemicals that ignite upon being combined.

I think they pretty much do. Seeing as how animals produce some incredibly complex molecules as toxins or for other purposes, simple fuels should not be too hard.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Camacha

[ZetaX]

The infinities you mentioned are equal: they are both countably infinite. In general, you say that two things (sets, actually) X, Y are of the same size if there is a bijective map from X to Y, i.e. a map that has an inverse g. Thus you want that g(f(x))=x for all x in X and that f(g(y))=y for all y in Y. If you let X = {1,2,3,4,...} and Y={1,3,5,7,...}, then f(x) = 2x-1 and g(y) = (y+1)/2 are functions that satisfy that. Thus X and Y are of the same size (the formal term is "cardinality").

But not all infinities are the same: there are more (in a certain sense similiar to the above) subsets of {1,2,3,4,...} than there are elements in that sets, especially they are not of the same size. This is one of the consequences of Cantor's diagonal method.

[gutza1]

Fixed a mathematical error.

[Camacha]

..........

Edited June 8, 2014 by Camacha

[Armchair Rocket Scientist]

Water and sodium, would be an excellent candidate.

The problem with that is pretty much every chemical reaction in a living organism takes place dissolved in water. I can't think of any way a dragon would prevent the sodium from reacting the instant it was produced.

An animal could almost certainly produce hydrogen, methane, propane, or whatever. However, gases would be hard to store in large quantities due to their being gas. A liquid, sprayed into the dragon's breath and aerosolized, might be more effective.

As mentioned, ignition would be a problem. The pistol shrimp can produce very high temperatures by cavitation, which might work as a spark, but I have no idea if that's possible in air. On the other hand, hydrazine is literally synthesized from ammonia or urea, which animals already produce as waste and ordinarily have to use up energy (and water) to get rid of. For that matter, dinitrogen tetroxide shouldn't be too hard to make. Due to their extreme toxicity, storing them might be a challenge, but they could be used to ignite the main flame.

[KSK]

<snip>

As mentioned, ignition would be a problem. The pistol shrimp can produce very high temperatures by cavitation, which might work as a spark, but I have no idea if that's possible in air. On the other hand, hydrazine is literally synthesized from ammonia or urea, which animals already produce as waste and ordinarily have to use up energy (and water) to get rid of. For that matter, dinitrogen tetroxide shouldn't be too hard to make. Due to their extreme toxicity, storing them might be a challenge, but they could be used to ignite the main flame.

You could always splice in some electric eel genes. Alternatively, real dragons chew firestone.

[Chiboko]

[nerd mode]

But the second law of thermodynamics is concerned with entropy, not conservation of energy. Entropy in a closed system must increase, since the plane is a closed but infinite system (ignoring interplanar portals) entropy within the system must still increase, so this does not give you a free energy pass. If you want free energy you need some kind of energy gradient. A good idea would be to open a portal between the elemental planes of fire and ice and use the temperature difference to drive a heat engine. Because both planes are infinite this gives you infinite free energy.

[/nerd mode]

So what if entropy still has to increase? Finite amount of entropy / Infinite amount of space = 0 -Or so close that it makes no difference- entropy for any volume you like. I went to the Terry Pratchet school of mathematics.

[ZetaX]

Reminds me of https://www.fanfiction.net/s/8096183/27/Harry-Potter-and-the-Natural-20 .

[Streetwind]

There are lots of reasons why they couldn't fly. At least not as normally depicted in D&D. Also, aren't they supposed to be magical?

While I don't doubt there are reasons why creatures of that size would have trouble flying IRL, during 3e times WotC released a dragon-centric sourcebook called the Draconomicon. It had some fairly nerdy sections on the mechanics of draconic flight A fun read for anyone interested in the subject (and other subjects of draconic biology).