A way to orbit shenzhou around moon

[xenomorph555]

It has been discussed before that it is or could be possible to launch a non orbiting trip round the moon via a long march 5.

However after thinking I had a thought, what if you launched a large powerful storable propellent booster into orbit with a lm2f (8 tonnes) and then the shenzhou with another 2f, dock them together, could you then fly to the moon and orbit?

I got the idea off gemini 8.

[Skyler4856]

It would be cost prohibitive, but would provide furthered knowledge of in orbit docking with propellant transfer, as well as the creation of sturdy, in orbit construction, that could be used on later Mars missions.

[xenomorph555]

It would be cost prohibitive, but would provide furthered knowledge of in orbit docking with propellant transfer, as well as the creation of sturdy, in orbit construction, that could be used on later Mars missions.

Lets pretend the government are perfectly fine with the cost.

[Skyler4856]

Alas even using the Long March V rocket, which is currently in development, the delta-v requirements are around 600 m/s too high. And that is using some very rushed maths, IE not taking mass of docking mechanism/fuel tanks/rocket engine...

http://www.strout.net/info/science/delta-v/intro.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta-v_budget

[xenomorph555]

Alas even using the Long March V rocket, which is currently in development, the delta-v requirements are around 600 m/s too high. And that is using some very rushed maths, IE not taking mass of docking mechanism/fuel tanks/rocket engine...

http://www.strout.net/info/science/delta-v/intro.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta-v_budget

Very good, thank you, although the lm5 discussion is complete and I would prefer to talk about this gemini 8 method.

[Nibb31]

What are you asking for exactly? If circumlunar flights are possible? Of course they are, since Apollo 8 did it, as well as a number of Russian Zond flights.

To do the same with Shenzhou in a dual-launch setup, you would need to dock it with an autonomous upper-stage, like a Block DM or a Centaur. I don't know if the Chinese have an equivalent.

For Gemini 8, the Agena didn't have enough delta-V for TLI, but there were plans for a Gemini-Centaur circumlunar flight. None of them went anywhere, because Gemini would have been stretched to its limit and Apollo was being built for the purpose. The plans existed as a backup in case something went wrong with the Apollo-Saturn project and the Russians might have got the advantage.

And just in case you have $200 million floating around, you could book a flight with Space Adventures who claim to be able to send you around the Moon in a Soyuz after docking in orbit with a Block DM upper stage. They have announced that they have at least one flight booked, so now it's just a matter of building the hardware.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Nibb31

[xenomorph555]

I know the circumlunar would be possible, i'm talking about full orbit.

[Nibb31]

In your OP, you talked about non-orbiting. Why do you bring up Gemini 8 in the context of circumlunar flights? What are you asking for exactly? I'm confused.

[metaphor]

If you're already on a free-return trajectory, it only takes about 200 m/s to get captured into an elliptical lunar orbit. Then it would take another 200 m/s to get back to Earth from it. So that's about 400 m/s delta-v extra your spacecraft would need over a free-return.

If you want to get into a low lunar orbit, that takes about 900 m/s. So you would need an additional 1800 m/s of delta-v compared to a free-return trajectory.

[xenomorph555]

In your OP, you talked about non-orbiting. Why do you bring up Gemini 8 in the context of circumlunar flights? What are you asking for exactly? I'm confused.

I created a thread months ago talking about circumlunar flights.

In this new thread I wanted to discuss orbiting the moon using a system similar to gemini 8.

[Reddragon]

A Long march 5 probably would have enough delta V to send a Shenzhou to a lunar orbit since it's a relatively lightweight spacecraft but it wouldn't have enough propellant to decelerate and then return. A two launch scenario is possible but it'd be useless.

[Nibb31]

I created a thread months ago talking about circumlunar flights.

In this new thread I wanted to discuss orbiting the moon using a system similar to gemini 8.

I still don't understand why you are referring to Gemini 8, which had nothing to do with lunar orbit.

Are you just referring to a dual launch architecture? If so, then it's just a matter of matching the dV provided by your booster and spacecraft with the dV required for TLI, LOI and TEI.

But what is the point of lunar orbit if you're not going to land?

[xenomorph555]

I was refering to the dual launch yes.

As for why, prestige but also because it's training, you wouldn't want to go to the moon first time on the actual landing mission.

[Nibb31]

I don't see why not. We know how moon landings work nowadays, so there would be no point in an Apollo 10 kind of mission.

Training is done on simulators, not in real conditions. An engineering test flight would be a more appropriate term, but doing a simple lunar orbit doesn't test anything more than a circumlunar flight. It only adds a LOI and a TEI burn, but you can validate upper stage restartability without leaving LEO. If you plan to land on the moon, then you will need more than a Shenzou and an upperstage to do so, so your engineering test flight wouldn't test any of the real conditions anyway.

[Reddragon]

If the Chinese would have a single module observation station/sample asteroid/reusable lander in Lunar orbit, it makes sense. But a single launch campaign would be still preferable due to costs and less complexity.

[xenomorph555]

I don't see why not. We know how moon landings work nowadays, so there would be no point in an Apollo 10 kind of mission.

Training is done on simulators, not in real conditions. An engineering test flight would be a more appropriate term, but doing a simple lunar orbit doesn't test anything more than a circumlunar flight. It only adds a LOI and a TEI burn, but you can validate upper stage restartability without leaving LEO. If you plan to land on the moon, then you will need more than a Shenzou and an upperstage to do so, so your engineering test flight wouldn't test any of the real conditions anyway.

I meant training as in gaining expertise, being able to go to a place where you have gone before and therefore it's nothing to new. It's mainly "training" the engineers how to build a moon worthy craft and the mission controllers how to run it.