[1.0.x] [V1.9f] Kerbal Foundries wheels, anti-grav repulsors and tracks

[lo-fi]

Oh &%$#, I thought that had been sorted! Thanks!

[smjjames]

Were you able to fix the off-center CoM for the regular antigrav motors?

[Gaalidas]

The icon thing is something I never had happen during my tests. We actually do have it fixed. I'm totally unsure what could cause that.

[JAFO]

The update to Beta 1.9a has stopped the repulsors working on water. Having them work at half the height of when on land was ok, but not this. You've managed to totally nerf the Boonta Eve Classic podracer challenge. Please fix asap!

[Gaalidas]

Shouldn't the repulsors at least do the same dust effect (on a bit smaller scale) as rockets do for Eeloo?

Rocket dust has nothing to do with our dust. Rockets produce dust from the SurfaceFX module, which is a completely different module.

That being said, yes there should be dust on any planet with a definition in that file and technically, if no planet/biome is matched in the file, a generic dust color (grey) will be used. If the camera is also enabled then the dust definition file will not really even matter so much. This means that new planets added from other mods will get dust effects in one way or another. The only thing that won't be taken into account are any specific dust density values (aka, the alpha value of the color).

[AccidentalDisassembly]

The icon thing is something I never had happen during my tests. We actually do have it fixed. I'm totally unsure what could cause that.

Well, my part-testing GameData directory just has CIT's nodehelper, BDAnimationsModule, CRP, FS, InterstellarFuelSwitch, KF, KJR, Klockheed Gimbal, and SmokeScreen in it, but I don't think it has to do with those at all. I remember Pilot Assistant having an icon-duplicating problem at some point that they somehow fixed...

[Gaalidas]

The update to Beta 1.9a has stopped the repulsors working on water. Having them work at half the height of when on land was ok, but not this. You've managed to totally nerf the Boonta Eve Classic podracer challenge. Please fix asap!

Ugh. Okay, one thing we should make absolutely clear is that version 1.9 is one of those "clean install of the mod" releases. That's something I forgot to say beforehand.

Other than that... I sure hope lo-fi isn't releasing patches haphazardly. These things were working fine yesterday.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, my part-testing GameData directory just has CIT's nodehelper, BDAnimationsModule, CRP, FS, InterstellarFuelSwitch, KF, KJR, Klockheed Gimbal, and SmokeScreen in it, but I don't think it has to do with those at all. I remember Pilot Assistant having an icon-duplicating problem at some point that they somehow fixed...

No, this sort of thing is not due to different mods interacting. It's a situation where KSP doesn't respond with certain events that it was when the AppLauncher was first unveiled to the public. It causes some headaches when trying to clean up AppLauncher buttons on scene switches. My guess is that we have everything covered except for reverts that don't switch back to a different scene, such as "revert to launch." is that what you were doing? If not, then I'm stumped.

[JAFO]

Ugh. Okay, one thing we should make absolutely clear is that version 1.9 is one of those "clean install of the mod" releases. That's something I forgot to say beforehand.

Other than that... I sure hope lo-fi isn't releasing patches haphazardly. These things were working fine yesterday.

This happened with the update applied via CKAN. Dunno if that matters.

[Gaalidas]

Well, we really don't officially support CKAN as far as I'm aware, since we've still in beta. That said, anything strange that happens when installing via CKAN is not something we can account for.

Once we're ready for a public release thread we'll have to make sure CKAN installs and/or updates work correctly. Until then, my suggestion is to cleanly install the mod manually. The folder structure has been revamped completely which could be an issue if a mod is installed without properly removing the old version of it.

Oh, and lo-fi... We really need to get a new image up for the mod on Kerbal Stuff. Those old wheels in the image now are so old I don't even think I ever used them, and I think I'm on the first page of this forum too. That's really old.

[JAFO]

Once we're ready for a public release thread we'll have to make sure CKAN installs and/or updates work correctly. Until then, my suggestion is to cleanly install the mod manually. The folder structure has been revamped completely which could be an issue if a mod is installed without properly removing the old version of it.

Ok.. I've downloaded the update directly from Kerbal Stuff and replaced the old folder with the new download. I'll report back to you shortly.

[Gaalidas]

I'm not going to claim that this will fix all your problems, it's just a good idea for this update. Future updates shouldn't require that as long as we don't redo everything, practically, like we did this time around.

I'm going to see about that icon reproduction thing. I really suspect that "revert to launch" is the culprit, because that's the only thing I never tested.

[AccidentalDisassembly]

Ugh. Okay, one thing we should make absolutely clear is that version 1.9 is one of those "clean install of the mod" releases. That's something I forgot to say beforehand.

Other than that... I sure hope lo-fi isn't releasing patches haphazardly. These things were working fine yesterday.

- - - Updated - - -

No, this sort of thing is not due to different mods interacting. It's a situation where KSP doesn't respond with certain events that it was when the AppLauncher was first unveiled to the public. It causes some headaches when trying to clean up AppLauncher buttons on scene switches. My guess is that we have everything covered except for reverts that don't switch back to a different scene, such as "revert to launch." is that what you were doing? If not, then I'm stumped.

There was definitely some reverting to launch involved... possibly a few explosions.

[Gaalidas]

Explosions are totally your own fault. Neither I nor lo-fi can be blamed for those. The icons on the AppLauncher... will be looked into. Uninformed procreation of icons is not permitted.

[*Aqua*]

Oops, one more: reverting, relaunching etc. duplicates the KF icon in the app launcher.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/59567837/KFduplicates.png

I couldn't reproduce this. Please explain more exactly what you did.

I wrote the logic for adding & removing the app launcher button. I can't see a loophole which could lead to multiple buttons. There's in theory a way this could happen if KSP bugs out. But that would be a major bug which should occure more often.

It could also be that other mods are incompatible and mess with KF's app button.

Edited August 8, 2015 by *Aqua*

[AccidentalDisassembly]

I couldn't reproduce this. Please explain more exactly what you did.

I wrote the logic for adding & removing the app launcher button. I can't see a loophole which could lead to multiple buttons. There's in theory a way this could happen if KSP bugs out. But that would be a major bug which should occure more often.

It could also be that other mods are incompatible and mess with KF's app button.

Oddly, I am having a hard time reproducing it, but I think this will do it. I think that the fact I was twiddling with cfgs (node_attach values) and reloading the database is involved. Not positive.

1. Load KSP, new sandbox.

2. Make craft, repulsor parts on it, save. Launch or don't, either way. I don't think anything about the craft matters, and I'm not even sure you have to make a craft at all.

3. Space center -> Alt-F12, database, reload all.

4. Go to SPH, load craft, launch craft. Now there are 2 instances of the KF icon and every scene switch will create one more.

5. To verify, go back and forth between KSC and runway (or whatever).

Going to see if I can replicate it WITHOUT the database reload.

EDIT: Can reproduce reliably. Has nothing to do with craft or part types. Just load KSP, go to KSC, reload database, then scene switching will duplicate the button. Somewhat of a false alarm apparently, sorry!

Edited August 8, 2015 by AccidentalDisassembly

[JAFO]

Ok.. I've downloaded the update directly from Kerbal Stuff and replaced the old folder with the new download. I'll report back to you shortly.

Ok.. clean install of V1.9a, fresh game started, new hover-speeder built, tried with and without Better Buoyancy, with Module Manager 2.6.6 and 2.6.7.

No joy. Splash, every time.

[*Aqua*]

@AccidentalDisassembly

Ah, that bug is known. IMO this is a KSP bug: The GUI manager is started only once during game load and executed in a static way. That means there's only one instance of manager running and it'll be automatically destroyed when the game ends.

Reloading the database causes KSP to reload everything, including the GUI manager. But because the game session didn't end the old GUI manager didn't get destroyed. Now there are two managers, adding two app buttons etc.

I wonder if it's necessary to fix that. The bug occurs only in a very specific situation which won't happen to 99.9% of the players. Also I would have to find out how to destroy a static instance. There are no static destructors in C#. Also the reason I've chosen a static instance is that it only runs once and it runs until the session gets unloaded. Well, in normal programs it works like that but KSP (or Unity or Mono, I'm not sure who's the culprit) doesn't follow the standard behavior in this case.

Edit: Scrap that static instance stuff. I looked into the wrong code version. *sigh*

But one thing is still there: The GUI manager should only run once. But that obiously means it runs once per database load.

Edited August 8, 2015 by *Aqua*

[AccidentalDisassembly]

Ok.. clean install of V1.9a, fresh game started, new hover-speeder built, tried with and without Better Buoyancy, with Module Manager 2.6.6 and 2.6.7.

No joy. Splash, every time.

Change the ride height to 100 and apply settings, then go slowly onto the water (if you're going from KSC, downhill slope makes you shoot into the water if you're going fast). Ride height is lower over water than over land, it seems.

- - - Updated - - -

@AccidentalDisassembly

Ah, that bug is known. IMO this is a KSP bug: The GUI manager is started only once during game load and executed in a static way. That means there's only one instance of manager running and it'll be automatically destroyed when the game ends.

Reloading the database causes KSP to reload everything, including the GUI manager. But because the game session didn't end the old GUI manager didn't get destroyed. Now there are two managers, adding two app buttons etc.

I wonder if it's necessary to fix that. The bug occurs only in a very specific situation which won't happen to 99.9% of the players. Also I would have to find out how to destroy a static instance. There are no static destructors in C#. Also the reason I've chosen a static instance is that it only runs once and it runs until the session gets unloaded. Well, in normal programs it works like that but KSP (or Unity or Mono, I'm not sure who's the culprit) doesn't follow the standard behavior in this case.

I don't know anything about KSP programming, but I am guessing this would take much time and effort. So my reaction is a resounding "meh."

One unusual behavior I notice - this may just be a property of how tracks work, and not a bug, I'm just curious:

Let's say you have a vehicle with four medium tracks where wheels would usually be: Picture Mk2 cockpit, long fuselage behind it, medium tracks stuck on sides (kind of the bottom-side, rotated).

When you come to a stop, you can turn in place, slowly.

When you move forward without steering, no problem: accelerates fine up to 10.6m/s or whatever the top speed is (can that be tweaked by the end user? that would be neat. TURBO TRACKS! Is that what torqueCurve does?).

However, in a certain range of very slow speeds while moving forward, turning one way or the other seems to lock things up and make motion of any kind much harder. When moving relatively fast forward, turning seems OK.\

Is this basically how a set of four tracks would work IRL? You can turn while stationary, but you can turn a lot easier if you've only got one track on each side; you can turn OK while moving relatively quickly (when you've got 4 of them total), but you can't do much at really slow speeds? Intuitively, seems like they might work that way - I mean, they aren't actually turning like wheels, just applying different torques or whatever, so that would seem to make sense: really hard to turn in place with a vehicle with four tracks, but maybe possible; hard to turn when going real slow.

EDIT: Also, with respect to the GUI thing - the weird logic from my non-programmer perspective isn't that the icon would duplicate when you reload the database. That would actually make logical sense from a purely intuitive perspective, but it doesn't. Reloading the database is the trigger for it to then duplicate on every scene change. Oh, code!

Edited August 8, 2015 by AccidentalDisassembly

[JAFO]

Change the ride height to 100 and apply settings, then go slowly onto the water (if you're going from KSC, downhill slope makes you shoot into the water if you're going fast). Ride height is lower over water than over land, it seems.

Already did that.. ride height at 100, strength and dampers maxed as well, gently onto the water at low speed. Makes no difference.

Edited August 8, 2015 by JAFO

[includao]

I'm loving this update. Everything looks fine to me with SOME of the my old .crafts

[AccidentalDisassembly]

Already did that.. ride height at 100, strength and dampers maxed as well, gently onto the water at low speed. Makes no difference.

Hmm, dunno what to tell you, I'm trying on a relatively clean copy of KSP with the new version and I can definitely go out onto the water, it just rides lower over the water than the land... you've got electricity and all? I mean, I assume so, since you're making it to the water from the runway or whatever in the first place...

Linux? Other mods?

[JAFO]

Hmm, dunno what to tell you, I'm trying on a relatively clean copy of KSP with the new version and I can definitely go out onto the water, it just rides lower over the water than the land... you've got electricity and all? I mean, I assume so, since you're making it to the water from the runway or whatever in the first place...

Linux? Other mods?

Yes.. got electricity and all that.. running on Windows, with a moderate amount of other mods.. basically, just the things needed or nice to have for the podracer challenge.

Can post a full list if necessary.

[*Aqua*]

So my reaction is a resounding "meh."

In my language this is a sound only goats can produce.

Also my English dictionary doesn't know this word.

EDIT: Also, with respect to the GUI thing - the weird logic from my non-programmer perspective isn't that the icon would duplicate when you reload the database. That would actually make logical sense from a purely intuitive perspective, but it doesn't. Reloading the database is the trigger for it to then duplicate on every scene change. Oh, code!

For me it makes sense. The GUI manager only adds and removes the app button when the application launcher (the thing that displays the button) reports it's ready. That usually only occurs after a scene change. Reloading the database doesn't count as a scene change.

(can that be tweaked by the end user? that would be neat. TURBO TRACKS! Is that what torqueCurve does?).

Yes, the torqueCurve determines torque at certain speeds. If the speed is so high that the tracks can't produce torque anymore, you reached the top speed.

Is this basically how a set of four tracks would work IRL?

Afaik yes. IRL vehicles with tracks usually* turn by braking the tracks on one side. At low speeds it could happen that the braking track comes to a halt. You could counter that by turning less aggressively but that isn't possible with a keyboard. Does KF actually care about turning slightly (using gamepad or joystick)?

*I guess there are exceptions but I don't know one. There are only three modi how a vehicle with tracks can turn:

a) braking on one side

accelerating on one side

c) combination of a) +

& c) don't make sense because accelerating one side means you have to lower the top speed and acceleration at going straight so there's still some room to accelerate for turning.

Edited August 8, 2015 by *Aqua*

[AccidentalDisassembly]

In my language this is a sound only goats can produce.

Also my English dictionary doesn't know this word.

Haha, not sure what your native language is, but in English it's also an onomatopoeia, though it's for a dismissive sound, or being noncommittal, or saying ça m'est égal, if you happen to be a French speaker:

(an example)

[*Aqua*]

I'm German and learned French as my 2nd foreign language. English was the 1st one with more emphasis on British English over American English because the pronounciation of BE is a bit closer to German. IMO all AE speakers mumble. I don't know why but it just sounds like that to me. Especially Texan English just sounds like rwrwrwrwwwwww all the time. ^^

Edited August 8, 2015 by *Aqua*