[1.0.x] [V1.9f] Kerbal Foundries wheels, anti-grav repulsors and tracks

[AlphaAsh]

Are you sure that's not SAS turning that craft? I've never been able to replicate that issue, and there's nothing in the code which adds random forces.

Slight drift happens with stock wheels/undercarriage too. I've always chalked it down to the rotation of the planet and that KSP's physics doesn't properly model down-force. The planet is literally moving under you.

You can see this more prominently at the points of rotation, the North and South pole. Just a theory though.

[riocrokite]

Are you sure that's not SAS turning that craft? I've never been able to replicate that issue, and there's nothing in the code which adds random forces. Although... Have you mounted those structural parts sideways? The looks strikingly familiar to the ones SMJJames was struggling with when using tracks. In which case, some of your wheels may be going backwards!

Not sure what you mean about the braking?

well, I'm usually using my mfs parts as a rover body and it's generally testing copy of KSP so you can disregard my remarks (might be fault of my install etc); wanted to just let you know in case there are more similar reports.

braking: try to go to more than 23m/s with long tracks and see if any weirdness happens

[ArkaelDren]

Nice Fricken job man. I used these tracks years ago with out the ability to adjust the spring and dampening rates. You have made these tracks come alive bud. Thx a ton

Dren

[lo-fi]

Cheers Dren, glad you're enjoying it all!

Ah, sorry, missed reading on mobile that SMJJames had posted as well; I read it as one long post by Rioc. Looks like you've got the same fault as the tracks there: one of those wheels is going backwards. Something about that arrangement of parts confuses things somehow! Put it on KerbalX and I'll see what's going on, but I suspect this is going to be a silly edge case that's impossible to catch with a general method.

The slight turn at speed is a well documented Unity WheelCollider "feature", as AlphaAsh points out. Though to be honest, I've never experienced it myself with the KF parts. It has to do with the colliders being run through the physics engine in turn, one at a time (without getting too technical). You ought to see what happened when I had the tracks setup with the stock modules, though; it was shocking!!

[smjjames]

Cheers Dren, glad you're enjoying it all!

Ah, sorry, missed reading on mobile that SMJJames had posted as well; I read it as one long post by Rioc. Looks like you've got the same fault as the tracks there: one of those wheels is going backwards. Something about that arrangement of parts confuses things somehow! Put it on KerbalX and I'll see what's going on, but I suspect this is going to be a silly edge case that's impossible to catch with a general method.

The slight turn at speed is a well documented Unity WheelCollider "feature", as AlphaAsh points out. Though to be honest, I've never experienced it myself with the KF parts. It has to do with the colliders being run through the physics engine in turn, one at a time (without getting too technical). You ought to see what happened when I had the tracks setup with the stock modules, though; it was shocking!!

[lo-fi]

Urgh, that's a lot of mods :/ What orientation are the root part and command pod in?

[smjjames]

Urgh, that's a lot of mods :/ What orientation are the root part and command pod in?

It says tweakable everything, but it's not actually neccesary since I didn't use it. Also, I just realized it fails to even mention KIS/KAS.

The command pod and root part are one and the same (the honeybadger command pod at the front), and it's in the usual orientation that command pods spawn in SPH.

I'll upload a slightly simplified version.

Edit: Huh, wierd, my new configuration doesn't have the problem.

http://kerbalx.com/smjjames/Pol-Mountaineer-alt

Edited August 26, 2015 by smjjames

[lo-fi]

Mind if I issue you with a version of the plugin with the debugging stuff in the RCM?

[smjjames]

Mind if I issue you with a version of the plugin with the debugging stuff in the RCM?

Sure.

Also, tweakscale does wierd things to the RPM limit. I checked with normal scaled wheels and the RPM limit worked fine, though normal scaled medium wheels look rather awkward on that craft.

[lo-fi]

Hehe. That'll be a maths error... The rpm needs to scale with the diameter of the wheels, not linearly with the scale. Well spotted, I'll get that fixed.

[DocMop]

Would it be possible to add a "grip" tweakable like in the StockBugfixModule+ (http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/97285-0-25-Stock-Bug-Fix-Modules)?

Some of the tracks already have rather poor grip (esp. the tiny ones) and it becomes like driving on ice in low gravity (like on Mun).

[smjjames]

Would it be possible to add a "grip" tweakable like in the StockBugfixModule+ (http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/97285-0-25-Stock-Bug-Fix-Modules)?

Some of the tracks already have rather poor grip (esp. the tiny ones) and it becomes like driving on ice in low gravity (like on Minmus).

Minor FIFY because Minmus is a MUCH better example.

That would be a nice idea actually.

Lo-Fi, you said you were going to give me a version of the plugin with the debug stuff for right click menu?

[V8jester]

Question on the latest KF, what does the suspension step value do? It's available as an option in the editor.

Also, is anybody seeing this wierd leftwards turning issue? This is on the grassy area just off the runway and all I'm doing is pressing 'w' for forward.

Settings in editor:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/smjjames/screenshot73_zps8rmk3psy.png

Actually I have an unrelated question. What are you using for FPS Ram tracking on the left side of the screen? Mem usage monitor was the one I liked but no longer works in 1.0.4

[smjjames]

Actually I have an unrelated question. What are you using for FPS Ram tracking on the left side of the screen? Mem usage monitor was the one I liked but no longer works in 1.0.4

That's GCmonitor.

[V8jester]

That's GCmonitor.

Thank you.

[Gaalidas]

I'd also like to point out that the weird water slider collider thing when moving from land to water or the other way around is still present. We need to figure out how to keep that collider in a horizontal orientation during that transition. (Referencing that pic, posted a while back, of the visible collider sticking up out of the water on the shore.) As it is, every time I test a repulsor build I end up upside down once the turbulence of the transition from land to water settles down.

In other news... I think I'm going to stick with a default of 2 for the smooth speed multiplier in the precision-mode toggle I'm working on. This will, of course, be a module setting for the configs so we can tweak it to fit each part specifically.

Edited August 26, 2015 by Gaalidas

[Logan.Darklighter]

I'd also like to point out that the weird water slider collider thing when moving from land to water or the other way around is still present. We need to figure out how to keep that collider in a horizontal orientation during that transition. (Referencing that pic, posted a while back, of the visible collider sticking up out of the water on the shore.) As it is, every time I test a repulsor build I end up upside down once the turbulence of the transition from land to water settles down.

In other news... I think I'm going to stick with a default of 2 for the smooth speed multiplier in the precision-mode toggle I'm working on. This will, of course, be a module setting for the configs so we can tweak it to fit each part specifically.

BTW - if you want to watch a good video that shows some of the issues with that white plate, check out the youtube link below. The players in that shared universe are using a slightly earlier version of the mod, but even so, there's some good real time examples of the weirdness that the white water repulsor surface gets up to. I had no idea that it spawned to follow BD Armory cruise missiles launched from a ship using the hover thrusters on water for example! What a strange bug!

The relevant bits that show the actual bug start about 9 minutes in.

[lo-fi]

Guys, I'm taking a break. See you in a while!

[smjjames]

I thought you were going to give me the modified plugin with the debug info in the right click menu? Later I guess.

Anyways....... I went and did some somewhat crude (though effective in this case) testing and found that the middle wheel on the right side is barely working while the left side isn't turning at all.

I tried to get a screenshot of it while barely working, but the torque quickly disappears.

Edited August 27, 2015 by smjjames

[Gaalidas]

Guys, I'm taking a break. See you in a while!

How very vague of you.

- - - Updated - - -

I thought you were going to give me the modified plugin with the debug info in the right click menu? Later I guess.

Anyways....... I went and did some somewhat crude (though effective in this case) testing and found that the middle wheel on the right side is barely working while the left side isn't turning at all.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/smjjames/screenshot83_zpsuaesziex.png

I tried to get a screenshot of it while barely working, but the torque quickly disappears.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/smjjames/screenshot82_zpsz19yfw9i.png

You do realize wheels work better on a solid surface, don't you? Beyond that little detail, I have absolutely no idea why this is happening to you. I never have these kinds of problems with my builds.

[smjjames]

You do realize wheels work better on a solid surface, don't you? Beyond that little detail, I have absolutely no idea why this is happening to you. I never have these kinds of problems with my builds.

I know that, but theres no reason why the middle wheels should be behaving like that, even if they aren't on solid ground. I was also trying to maybe get a clue to it in absence of that modified plugin with the right click menu debug info. I was also trying to look if they actually were going backwards.

I did say the testing was somewhat crude......

[Gaalidas]

BTW - if you want to watch a good video that shows some of the issues with that white plate, check out the youtube link below. The players in that shared universe are using a slightly earlier version of the mod, but even so, there's some good real time examples of the weirdness that the white water repulsor surface gets up to. I had no idea that it spawned to follow BD Armory cruise missiles launched from a ship using the hover thrusters on water for example! What a strange bug!

The relevant bits that show the actual bug start about 9 minutes in.

It looks like the issues are all visual in that video. What I'd like to know is why bug reports are coming in for an outdated version of this mod? We fixed that visibility issue a long time ago. There are still some kinks to work out, but the bugs that are being shown at that 9 minute mark and beyond are not something that we have a problem with anymore.

The reason it spawned for all those parts is that we'd set it up as a vessel module, meaning is was not directly attached to a single part on the craft, but rather the entire craft. However, this also meant we couldn't restrict it to just crafts with a KF repulsor unit on it. Instead, we have now moved it back to a part module, but it is added to the root of the craft when the flight scene is initialized from the repulsor modules, so it should only affect repulsor enabled craft.

- - - Updated - - -

I know that, but theres no reason why the middle wheels should be behaving like that, even if they aren't on solid ground. I was also trying to maybe get a clue to it in absence of that modified plugin with the right click menu debug info. I was also trying to look if they actually were going backwards.

I did say the testing was somewhat crude......

Granted, alright. Still, your issues confuse me a lot. Yeah, I get strange rotation sometimes, but the only time I ever had a wheel refuse to work right was when I had accidentally attached another wheel to the surface of it. Np, wait... there was one other time, but I attributed that to simply having too many wheels in strange configurations on the same vehicle.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Gaalidas

[smjjames]

Granted, alright. Still, your issues confuse me a lot. Yeah, I get strange rotation sometimes, but the only time I ever had a wheel refuse to work right was when I had accidentally attached another wheel to the surface of it. Np, wait... there was one other time, but I attributed that to simply having too many wheels in strange configurations on the same vehicle.

Stranger than the configuration on my craft?

You know though, I have LOADS of mods, so, I really should test that in a more stripped down branchoff KSP, just to be sure.

Edit: It's even more obvious that one of the wheels isn't working at all.

Edited August 27, 2015 by smjjames

[Gaalidas]

It's a crazy mystery that I'm unable to solve personally. This requires the wheel-master's touch.

Yes indeed, I have built things that make that thing look very tame. Imagine this: three sets of wheels on each side (six total), each set comprised of six medium wheels assembled in a 2x3 setup (similar to what your rover does, but more compact) for a grand total of 36 medium wheels. 35 of those wheels worked flawlessly, and the one wheel that didn't ended up tearing its entire 6-wheeled compartment from the rest of the rover when I attempted to force it to move. Even then, the rover was able to move rather well, except that the cockpit was hanging in an odd angle and dangerously close to the ground. I wish I'd taken pictures.

I'm going to try making something, in a similar configuration to yours, next time I launch KSP and see if I can reproduce your issue.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Gaalidas

[Gaalidas]

Alright, I have something for you to try.

First off, I recreated your design (using different hull parts since I don't run that specific USI mod in my game, but the orientations default to the same vector so there should be little to no issue) and it worked flawlessly. However, there are some differences with my installation than the standard one. lo-fi experimented with retractable wheels a while back and some of those settings remain in some of the parts despite there being no animation to go along with them.

So, I'd like you to try something for me and see how it goes, if you're comfortable with editing some part files. First off, go into the KF directory, then the Parts folder, and look for "WheelLarge.cfg" and open that up. Under the module named "KFModuleWheel" you'll see some parameters that go along the lines of "hasRetract" or some such. I don't have those lines in front of me and I need to leave the house like 5 minutes ago, so bear with me. Some of those parameters will be set to "True" and I want you to set anything that has to do with retracting to "False" or, alternatively, just delete that parameter from the module. Relaunch the game and relaunch the craft. (Re-attach the wheels if you can spend the time) Let me know if this changes anything.

EDIT: In theory, the part might be getting stuck in a "retracted" state which would effectively make it unresponsive in much the same way you are describing. With those parameters removed or set to False, they will simply not ever have the opportunity to be retracted, which eliminates that possibility from the things we would need to investigate in order to figure out what's wrong here.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Gaalidas