KSP Community CubeSat

[KSat]

I have to say as a manufacturing engineer those prices are outrageous for what your getting. The structure could be custom made far cheaper and possibly better. (tailor made)

Hello deljr15,

nice to see a fellow engineer in the KSP forum.

I suppose you are currently not working in aerospace industry?

The prices for space qualified components are usually about ten times (or more) than the prices for normal earth-based stuff.

Mostly because of the qualification process, every component need to be qualified and verified to sustain the loads and forces of launch and in orbit. Also you have to check every possible failure mode that might occur, and prove that this failure mode means no harm to other systems like your launch vehicle or the ISS.

It is very likely that custom made components are better and the material cost is cheaper, but they surely wont be cheaper when you take the qualification process

into the calculation. Even a simple shaker test will cost about 1k €/$.

Cheers,

KSat

[Nicholander]

I don't think I have a working version of that link? I'll probably find it as I catch up, but if somebody can drop it here, it might save some time.

Here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jR2B_M67cITTBtV_PDMoioVQp3bnCTR85ecQeVKmpWI/edit

[deljr15]

Hello deljr15,

nice to see a fellow engineer in the KSP forum.

I suppose you are currently not working in aerospace industry?

The prices for space qualified components are usually about ten times (or more) than the prices for normal earth-based stuff.

Mostly because of the qualification process, every component need to be qualified and verified to sustain the loads and forces of launch and in orbit. Also you have to check every possible failure mode that might occur, and prove that this failure mode means no harm to other systems like your launch vehicle or the ISS.

It is very likely that custom made components are better and the material cost is cheaper, but they surely wont be cheaper when you take the qualification process

into the calculation. Even a simple shaker test will cost about 1k €/$.

Cheers,

KSat

Hi KSat,

That is correct I do not work in the aerospace industry. I am currently in transportation (Light duty rail) after looking over the kits and what they were made of I gasped.

I didn't realize there was a qualification process to go thru. Time to visit the googles.

Edit: If you have some reading on this I would be interested in learning something new.

Edited November 2, 2014 by deljr15

[KSat]

Hi KSat,

That is correct I do not work in the aerospace industry. I am currently in transportation (Light duty rail) after looking over the kits and what they were made of I gasped.

I didn't realize there was a qualification process to go thru. Time to visit the googles.

Edit: If you have some reading on this I would be interested in learning something new.

Hello deljr15,

for a quick search I found two acceptable sources.

First the corresponding wikipedia entry

Verification (Spaceflight)

and a ugly NASA presentation:

NASA and AQEC cmse04.ppt

Problem for custom made stuff is that you need to qualify it yourself and the qualification procedures itself needs to be accepted by the launch vehicle operators. Usually this includes some virtual simulations and at least one experiment in a vacuum chamber with thermal loads.

For the moment I do not have any specific pointers to documents that describe these requirements, I'm sorry.

Cheers,

KSat

[deljr15]

Hello deljr15,

for a quick search I found two acceptable sources.

First the corresponding wikipedia entry

Verification (Spaceflight)

and a ugly NASA presentation:

NASA and AQEC cmse04.ppt

Problem for custom made stuff is that you need to qualify it yourself and the qualification procedures itself needs to be accepted by the launch vehicle operators. Usually this includes some virtual simulations and at least one experiment in a vacuum chamber with thermal loads.

For the moment I do not have any specific pointers to documents that describe these requirements, I'm sorry.

Cheers,

KSat

Thanks for the powerpoint. I also found a doc claiming to be a ISO standard on the topic.

standardsproposals.bsigroup.com/Home/getPDF/2287

With the other COTS items that will likely be on board. Will the sat require qualification anyway?

On the topic of requirements. It may be possible to design some experiments that will satisfy the launch provider. It would also be in our best interests to do so if we are to develop beyond this one mission.

Simulation: Solidworks - also would aid in the manufacturing

Vacuum chamber: This one could be tricky but I have seen stranger things done in a garage.

Shake test: Well how hard can this one be.

On another note: I still have not found a list of requirements. As of typing this I still have not finished the PDF.

May need to go straight to launch provider to obtain this.

[K^2]

Problem for custom made stuff is that you need to qualify it yourself and the qualification procedures itself needs to be accepted by the launch vehicle operators. Usually this includes some virtual simulations and at least one experiment in a vacuum chamber with thermal loads.

That seems entirely reasonable. I was kind of expecting that we'll need a vacuum chamber test. Since vacuum quality shouldn't be a major issue, I'm sure we can find someone that'd let us use one without too much cost.

[NERVAfan]

One of the Sandy Antunes books describes how to do that stuff DIY (including a low pressure/"vacuum" chamber). I will post more details when I have a chance, kind of in a hurry now.

As for custom made stuff... my worry is that we are all in different parts of the world so it will be hard to get together and physically put stuff together. So if we can get enough money through the kickstarter (and I'm optimistic) it might be better to buy stuff rather than make it so that we can get this done in a halfway reasonable timeframe.

[deljr15]

One of the Sandy Antunes books describes how to do that stuff DIY (including a low pressure/"vacuum" chamber). I will post more details when I have a chance, kind of in a hurry now.

As for custom made stuff... my worry is that we are all in different parts of the world so it will be hard to get together and physically put stuff together. So if we can get enough money through the kickstarter (and I'm optimistic) it might be better to buy stuff rather than make it so that we can get this done in a halfway reasonable timeframe.

Time frame wise I completely agree. However we will still need to work to the drawings of the chassis. This is true if we go custom or off the shelf.

The only real issue I see is shipping. Will there be import issues ect.

Build it modular and someone in the country it will launch from will receive the parts to assemble and deliver to launch provider.

True it will only see all the parts come together at final assembly. That should not be a problem if everyone sticks to the mounting/size limits imposed by the drawings.

Edited November 3, 2014 by deljr15
spelling

[K^2]

I've updated the front page. Please, let me know if I'm missing something.

[Nicholander]

Hmm... It doesn't look like you've forgotten anything, good.

[henryrasia]

Finally, now the first post isn't misleading anymore One thing that I've noticed we can start doing right now is a bit of shameless self-advertising (we need to get that done someday why not start now? It's one of the few cost-less things we all can do). But for that we'd need a nifty forum signature with a logo, a drawing, mission name and slogan or whatever. We need dat marketing guys! Does anyone know anyone who's good at making these things? I've seen a lot of cool stuff in the forums so... It'd also be cool to format and illustrate the first post / Google doc, like a banner. People read more visually, so we should start doing that.

[Nicholander]

A digital artist? (I think that's the term) I'm not good at drawing, but there are definitely some people on the forums who are! Maybe perhaps Felsmak? He draws planets, but I suppose he'd make some fine stuff for us.

[LvL]

Are you gonna add your name to the map K^2?

[deljr15]

Who here has access to CAD software? Specifically 3d modeling. If so what?

Me - Solidworks

I have been thinking. If those of us that do start collecting models of the various components that we plan to use. We can start to make rough mockups of different designs starting with off the shelf. We can then stick them together listing total component cost/mass. Complexity and compatibility will be assessed by peer review.

Edit: Forgot to add /mass

Edited November 4, 2014 by deljr15

[K^2]

Are you gonna add your name to the map K^2?

Erm... I could. Are you guys using some specific software/service, or just grab image, edit in image editor, upload it back?

[Nicholander]

Just download it, edit it, and upload it back:

Also, deljr15, thought these CubeSat diagrams of ArduSat I found might be useful:

[Mazon Del]

Who here has access to CAD software? Specifically 3d modeling. If so what?

Me - Solidworks

I have been thinking. If those of us that do start collecting models of the various components that we plan to use. We can start to make rough mockups of different designs starting with off the shelf. We can then stick them together listing total component cost/mass. Complexity and compatibility will be assessed by peer review.

Edit: Forgot to add /mass

I also have solidworks experience. I have been somewhat hoping that someone would find and post a link to design drawings for the frame and whatnot in a 1U cubesat. I am reasonably certain it is best that we go this route rather than a custom frame. The custom frame is going to have to sit inside the cube-launcher anyway, so its going to resemble it for the most part. If we have some other shape, chances are we will need to make a new launcher and that dramatically increases the cost and decreases the chances of this happening.

[henryrasia]

Oh... my... god...

Check this out!

It's right here in my city! Whaaaat??!!! Quickly see if and how can I represent / ask questions!!! December 8th!

[deljr15]

I have a couple case models downlaoded already. I also have a dataserver ill upload stuff to after work. Anyone that wants access can just message me for ftp info

[LvL]

Oh... my... god...

Check this out!

It's right here in my city! Whaaaat??!!! Quickly see if and how can I represent / ask questions!!! December 8th!

Sooooooo what is it?

[Endersmens]

I'm so sorry guys! My computer broke again. The screen won't come on when I turn it on. (It's a desktop towerless so It's not a loose cord) I have to wait till we get a new computer before I can do anything. I barely got to play .24 because my computer's hard drive crashed hard right before, and a week after I get .24 the screen stops working. A week before .25 dropped. Which means I haven't been able to do anything lately. I haven't abandoned this, things have just been bad lately.

[Nicholander]

Hope you get your PC soon, and thanks for the status update. And 1st Latin American IAA CubeSat Workshop? Fantastic, and it's before the end of 2014 working design deadline! Brilliant!

[henryrasia]

Yeah, hopefully we can get some sort of respectable design by then.

About the camera, first of all we need to know what kind of data we're looking for. Just "take pictures of it" isn't a good mission objective at all. What I thought would be interesting would be to have a microscope to look at the cells. Then, another use would be using a camera to adjust or confirm position/rotation and take cool pictures! But for that we'd need video, is there no way to stream video at a lower quality and then have full HD pictures be taken, compressed, and THEN beamed down to the ground? Also, is the power requirements so big a big battery wouldn't do the trick? Walkie-talkies last a LONG time with tiny batteries so...

Anyways, for the camera/microscope duo I thought having one single camera that rotated around a pivot could serve to 1) Observe mulitple petri dishes with one camera 2) take peeks outside through a cover-able porthole (remember, the moss must stay in darkness most of the time to avoid an extra variable, plus it would need CO2 if it received light IIRC). And finally the microscope part could be done with fixed lenses in front of the petri dishes, and when the camera looked through them it would be magnified. This would also allow for both magnified and non-magnified images of the moss (if we place the lense smartly).

Just wanted to say that, hope to hear your thoughts!

[deljr15]

Yeah, hopefully we can get some sort of respectable design by then.

About the camera, first of all we need to know what kind of data we're looking for. Just "take pictures of it" isn't a good mission objective at all. What I thought would be interesting would be to have a microscope to look at the cells. Then, another use would be using a camera to adjust or confirm position/rotation and take cool pictures! But for that we'd need video, is there no way to stream video at a lower quality and then have full HD pictures be taken, compressed, and THEN beamed down to the ground? Also, is the power requirements so big a big battery wouldn't do the trick? Walkie-talkies last a LONG time with tiny batteries so...

Anyways, for the camera/microscope duo I thought having one single camera that rotated around a pivot could serve to 1) Observe mulitple petri dishes with one camera 2) take peeks outside through a cover-able porthole (remember, the moss must stay in darkness most of the time to avoid an extra variable, plus it would need CO2 if it received light IIRC). And finally the microscope part could be done with fixed lenses in front of the petri dishes, and when the camera looked through them it would be magnified. This would also allow for both magnified and non-magnified images of the moss (if we place the lense smartly).

Just wanted to say that, hope to hear your thoughts!

I was thinking along the same lines today. All the high resolution cameras I have looked into will take 1/4 to 1/3 of the satellite. So that should be a last item selected as something to fill a void that was not needed for mission critical components.

I like the idea of using a lens system on the experiment to use a regular camera. Tho in practice this may not work (no experience in optics). This will also bring its own problems. A rotating camera will take significantly more space then a fixed. Given our current list of cameras this will not work. Years ago I worked for a security company that specialized in surveillance. We had some 480p cameras that were about 25mm x 25mm x 15mm. These looked a lot like the cameras in the photos above of ArduSat.

Another thought I had was to use a microscope attached to a hinge and a solenoid allowing positioning over 2 experiments.

Also I have uploaded all the files I have downloaded regarding cubesats to the dataserver. PM me for login info.

[KSat]

Hello Kerbonauts,

I should have done this some time ago:

I have been somewhat hoping that someone would find and post a link to design drawings for the frame and whatnot in a 1U cubesat.

For the cubesat frame: I already did the 1U and 2U CubeSat Frames for KSP and astropapi did some textures. If you need a editable CATIA-Model just ask.

Cheers,

KSat