Advisors

[Strikerklm96]

So Squad has said that they don't want a dV readout in the stock game, and probably the same with a TWR stage readout, and I see where they are coming from with this and I agree with them. It somewhat breaks the fun of the game when it just becomes math and or numbers.

Instead what they should do is have a Vehicle Assembly Building adviser, sort of how they do now with Gene Kerman at Mission Control, but this Kerbal would say useful things. For those of you familiar with the Sid Meier's Civilization video games, each part of your civilization had an adviser that gave you tips and advice. He didn't tell you numbers or statistics, he would tell you if you were doing something bad, and make recommendations.

Although this would mainly be for new players, it would also be for people who want some good approximation of whether they have a rocket that has enough dV and TWR

This wouldn't be an "In Your Face" message, it would just be up in the corner, similar to or smaller than that example, but with Wernher Von Kerman. Keep in mind this would not play the game for you, it's just helpful for anyone playing stock, as well as a fun interactive Kerman that actually talks. And if you find that kind of thing annoying, i'm sure you could turn it off. And, as different parts of the game progress, I could imagine an advisor in each building. Spaceplane Hangar, Astronaut Complex, Mission Control(Gene with more helpful advice), Research and Development, Tracking Station. I can think of plenty of advice they could give. So here are some examples of what they would say, as well as the conditions for the message:

Keep in mind any dV thresholds would be pretty approximate, and to be on the safe side, a little higher than what you would actually need.

Vehicle Assembly Building:

The craft is so heavy, it might not be able to take off, we want more thrust!(TWR too low for early stage)

The engines are too powerful, and will waste our fuel!(TWR too high for early stage)

This rocket probably can't get too far. (dv lower than orbit)

Should be able to get into a stable orbit with it now. (dv greater than orbit)

I'm betting this could get to the Mun. (dV reaches a threshold for Mun and Minmus)

You could get to a nearby planet riding this! (dV reaches a threshold for Eve and duna)

This has enough fuel to make it a couple planets away. I think. (dV reaches a threshold for Dres and Moho)

I bet the outer planets are within this ships range. (dV reaches a threshold for Jool and Eeloo)

By my calculations, this rocket can go wherever it wants! (dV such that it can go to the costliest planet, Eeloo, and back)

Solid rocket boosters are cheaper than liquid ones. Save money for snacks please! (person is using all liquid fuel)

This craft is so big, it might spin out of control! (large mass, and not much control, with either fins, rcs, or reaction wheels)

We might have trouble docking that without finely controlled RCS thrusters. (has a docking port with no rcs or small type engines)

What if it runs out of electricity! (probe with no solar panels/not enough batteries)

Spaceplane Hanger:

Move the wings to the back of the craft or you might lose control! (C.O.L. in front of C.O.M.)

This plane might be hard to steer. (C.O.L. too far behind C.O.M.)

We will want more wings on this thing. (Lift Rating/Mass too low)

More engines would be nice. (Thrust/Mass too low)

This many engines might be overkill. (Thrust/Mass too high)

How do you plan to land, exactly? (No parachutes or landing gear)

It will be more fun to fly if there are flaps you can control. (There are none or too little control surfaces)

We should try flying this thing into space! (dv with rocket and max high altitude velocity reach some level)

I bet it circumnavigate the entirety of Kerbin! (could make it all the way around Kerbin)

Mission Control:

Completing multiple contracts on the same flight could save our program money. (person repeatedly accepts 1 contract at a time)

We could use this money. (suggests contract high in monetary rewards if low on money)

Everyone will like us more for doing this. (suggests reputation contract if low on rep)

This program could use the science. (suggests contract high in science if your science is low compared to your money)

Tracking Station:

If you find some asteroids, I bet they would be interesting to catch and study.

The best time to go to [planet] will be in [x time]. (this might not be a good idea)

Suggest that you go places, and what you might find. Mountains, water, craters, flatland.

And I know KSP is a WIP, but that's why it's a suggestion.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Strikerklm96

[Algiark]

If Squad makes this, I will never use Kerbal Engineer or similar add-ons again.

[TinfoilChef]

Personally, I would prefer to have the numbers. In my experience "advisors" tend get really annoying really fast.

[Jouni]

I prefer numbers over vague hints. A major part of the fun is that we know exactly how things work in the game, allowing us to plan missions and predict their outcomes reliably.

[BudgetHedgehog]

Personally, I would prefer to have the numbers. In my experience "advisors" tend get really annoying really fast.

Completely agree. I think part of it comes down to the fact that the phrases would be repeated and repeated and repeated etc.. In flight, I like to know my numbers as well. That, and some mission profiles end up using more or less dV than the readout, even in KER, gives - such as docking another vessel to it, or using different engines. Other times, I design an SSTO rocket that has enough fuel for a Munar burn - at those times, I really need to know numbers, not just 'this can reach orbit!'. And how would phrases handle staging? I have set stages for each leg of a journey - I need to know if stage 2 has enough dV to land on the Mun, not that my whole vessel 'could get to the Mun'. Some people I know do like to play without serious planning or numbers, but I do and that's why I've installed KER and they haven't. Choices, yo.

Also this:

[r4pt0r]

Personally, I would prefer to have the numbers. In my experience "advisors" tend get really annoying really fast.

lol everytime i play a strategy game

"but sir, are you sure you want to attack the greeks? we are allied with them"

"but sir, are you sure you want to attack the greeks? we are allied with them"

"but sir, are you sure you want to attack the greeks? we are allied with them"

Yes, i want to attack the greeks. backstabing is how you build an empire, stop bothering me.

EDIT: I want the wizard in ksp, not the paperclip

[Sky_walker]

Sounds great, and very much in style of the game.

Yes, please Make it happen!

[allmhuran]

I like the idea, but the problem with these more "qualitative" tips is that you can't really say any of them are really true and correct.

Whether or not you want more wings depends on how you fly it, whether you've got drop tanks, etc. Whether or not something can reach other planets depends extremely heavily on how you fly it. If you can reach Eve you can reach anywhere via gravity slingshots, so advisement of the form "this one can get a few plants out" would come up as soon as you had a ship that could reach Eve. And so on.

Providing the raw numbers doesn't require any judgement calls, those are left up to the player.

This kind of thing also wouldn't be of any help after you've launched. Not the biggest deal but people might want to change their mission profile and won't have any information about their remaining capability.

All in all I'm not sure why Squad doesn't want to show actual delta V or TWR. Do you have a quote?

[r4pt0r]

All in all I'm not sure why Squad doesn't want to show actual delta V or TWR. Do you have a quote?

http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/12/23/kerbal-space-program-dev-on-random-solar-systems-the-joy-of-failure-and-the-cult-of-steam/

Some players are interested in a delta-V indicator [which would show you exactly how much thrust a rocket has, basically]. What do you think?

Falange: I wanted it sometimes, and I un-wanted it other times. In the end, it takes away a gameplay element because it takes some of the guesswork and some of the trial and error and figuring out for yourself what the delta-V is. It might take some of the magic away. One of the great things about KSP is doing just what Chad was doing just now [Editor's note: this was Thursday afternoon, and Chad Jenkins was in the process of livesteaming his creation of a flying rocket-powered surfboard, killing two-dozen Kerbals in the process]. That ridiculous contraption he was doing, just trying to see if he could make it to the water, just shooting it on a rocket. If you make it too technical, it’s certainly possible to calculate it. But it’s like giving the answer to a puzzle sometimes, and I don’t know if we want that. The same applies to showing how much burn time you have remaining. I think there’s always this element of tension of trying to calculate in your head how much fuel you have left and if you’re going to make it. It’s like filling out the crossword puzzle for you.

I personally agree, i like throwing everything together and watching the fuel tick down while worrying about maybe not making it home, but some people prefer to be more technical. i guess thats what mods are for.

[Kegereneku]

I would prefer the number than an advisor considering how SQUAD is randomizing Contract, I don't want nearly-random advice.

One simple solution would be to make DeltaV readout a LATE GAME upgrade in the tech-tree.

Early you can play on feeling, but I don't see why I should take the risk to fail an important mission to Jool because I didn't had a perfectly necessary calculator at my disposal.

Sometime I use Mechjeb NOT to pilot for me, NOT to give me the solution, NOT EVEN to tell me if I'll have enough dV because I know I have, but to make sure the staging sequence didn't changed and made me drop a stage in illogical order.

Some players have their fun building ridiculously inefficient rocket.

I have my fun building a ridiculously Efficient rocket.

[Guest]

Numbers, not useless talking heads trying to railroad you into a "good" design.

[Sky_walker]

Numbers, not useless talking heads trying to railroad you into a "good" design.

As he pointed out already - devs don't want to show numbers to the player.

Don't ask me why - it doesn't make any sense for me either. Numbers would really help new players understand how different engines / fuel tanks affect Dv, what the Dv is, how to use your resources efficiently instead of building some obscure mega-rockets for stuff that can be done with a simple, tiny probe, etc.

[Kegereneku]

Then devs need to change their minds as they did on worse than that.

Anyway it would be quite hypocrite to not show a least a global DeltaV (not stage per stage) when they show thrust, specific impulse and mass.

The real question is how will they introduce it later as player progress. Because even if they don't, we will always install a mod for this missing feature.

[Strikerklm96]

It is very common not to display numbers directly related to game mechanics. Most FPS games don't display dps for weapons, or damage break downs, or rate of fire, or the speed at which you can turn or sprint with the weapon. They don't display the field of view, the hitboxes of the player, or the % increase or decrease for hitting them there. This is a COMMON abstraction that developers do in games to help "immersion", because in real life, you don't get to calculate the effectiveness of something down to infinite sig figs. Not to mention, when new players start seeing spreadsheets, that is a MAJOR turn off.

To get around this, they give generic and non specific advice like, this is good for X, and this is really bad at Y.

People are acting like this will somehow remove Kerbal Engineer from their games. I have installed kerbal engineer and find it very helpful, but the devs said they didn't want that for stock KSP. I would be happy if they put direct dV and TWR readouts. But they don't want that, and new players do need some sort of hinting, especially with the monetary system. And the idea that you could disable this should remove any hint of "OMG this is annoying". There could be a checkbox RIGHT NEXT TO THE HEAD, so you just click it and it goes away. And once again, it doesnt give in your face messages, it doesn't stop you from doing anything. It is a text box in corner. When I was new to civilization, the advisors were very helpful, and eventually I just ignored what they were saying.

And it's not like KSP is the only game where math matters. Here is some math for a catch rate for some pokemon game http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Catch_rate (scroll down)

Math helps in most games, but that doesn't mean it should be included in the game so directly. Generic hints are what developers have done for ages and still do, and I doubt that will change with KSP.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Strikerklm96

[No one]

Generic hints do exist: You can test it and see if it works.

Also, considering how bad the staging the game sets up for me is, I highly doubt the talking heads would know what they were talking about.

Also I would instantly switch them off for being annoying and consider them a waste of developer time.