contracts....where will it lead?

[TNM]

Ok, played around with contracts...immediately noticed that the "placeholder" character is evident in this one. Alot of small forgetable contracts (only few exceptions), but the system is open (mods).

I would really like to see contracts "group" into "programs". This could mean that you will have to "choose" a path and then have to accomplish a list of missions that build up to the goal. The large reward/rep will come at the end, you will fight to keep the program afloat while trying to accomplish it. Want to go to Minmus or the Mun? Well, the requirements will be different. Want to colonize the Mun or Duna? Choose. You get the idea.

tl;dr

now -> fly to the mun (build whatever...reach it in time x)

i hope later -> want to reach the mun? reach stepping stones x,y,z (getting only small rewards every time), do the final mission (plant flag), get large reward and rep.

[Daid]

i hope later -> want to reach the mun? reach stepping stones x,y,z (getting only small rewards every time), do the final mission (plant flag), get large reward and rep.

This is sort of already done. As you first get orbit contracts, then when you did that, you get mun/minus contracts. After that you get duna/eve contracts, after that... I do not know yet

And those contracts have "orbit first" -> "gather science" -> "goto the surface" -> "gather science at surface"

[TNM]

Thats not the same. You can individually take that contract and always get the large rewards immediately without progressing any further. Thats fine, but i would call it "underdeveloped".

Think of it this way: if Apollo whould have failed, and i mean Apollo 11 (and stopping there because 3 dead astronauts), how much prestige would the previous missions have gotten NASA?

Sure, single contracts can stay, even the "experimental" ones (funny stuff like testing SRB in orbit or...splashed down), but i really hope they expand contracts into meaningfull choices working towards a specific "highpoint". Failing the program (running out of funds before reaching main goal) would give the needed challenge.

edit:

I'm really thinking from a noob-standpoint here because thats what SQUAD told us (contracts/sience = tutorial like). Sure, i can design any mission in 1 go now, but i did the "experimental" work in previous playruns already. For new players there should be some kind of progression that "leads" there even without any knowledge of RL space programs or KSP.

Edited July 21, 2014 by TNM

[peadar1987]

This is basically what I suggested in this post: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/87012-Another-contract-structure-suggestion

[Javster]

I suggested programs but it was really misunderstood by most people on the thread :/

[MKI]

Sure, single contracts can stay, even the "experimental" ones (funny stuff like testing SRB in orbit or...splashed down), but i really hope they expand contracts into meaningfull choices working towards a specific "highpoint". Failing the program (running out of funds before reaching main goal) would give the needed challenge.

There are two levels of KSP players. Neither of wich would appreciate a "challenge" in running out of funds and being kicked down to doing low end contracts.

1. The new player- The new player either wont know about the significance of a "highpoint" in their program, as far as they know what ever they do is a high point. Remember when you first got to orbit, that's a high point. They don't need a large looming contract that will shut their program down if they fail. They do that to themselves as they learn how to play the game.

The current system also caters to how they are allowed to fail. Career mode isn't suppose to be hard anyways. You can fail a bunch of times in the current mode before you really have to worry.

2. The Veteran player- The vet would know more about what a "high point" in their career mode would look like, being limited on funds, high stakes high gain situation. But unlike the new player I'm sure they will figure it out without much trouble.(if there is trouble with the vet, then the new player probably can't play the game which isn't a good thing) This would lead to just limited design options, and limited play options. Veteran players wouldn't exactly appreciate being stuck with limited choices to how they want to play career. What if a Veteran wants to fly to duna BEFORE going to the Mun and get away with it? There far to many chooses to be covered in a ridged system.

The current setup isn't perfect, but its open enough to allow a new player plenty of wiggle room. It also gives Veteran players multiple options on how they want to play the game, none of them are ultimately challenging. That is a big part of KSP as a game though, you still set goals and choose your goals for yourself.

Making the game more challenging in your mind might be nice, but that doesn't mean your idea of challenging would bold well with other people. The goal should be making a game that is open to as many people as possible. All the while keeping things challenging enough you look down to check your funds every now and then. Not because your going to run out, because it still costs a lot to launch a full SLS mission to Duna and you still want to make a 50 booster rocket for the lulz.

[peadar1987]

My suggestion was to essentially keep the current system, but add a "program system" alongside it, so as to try and get the best of both worlds. The Program System could build up gradually so newbies could learn things like getting into orbit, docking, rendezvous, Hohmann Transfers, transfer windows, etc. in a gradual and progressive way, while being rewarded for it, and more experienced players could jump straight in and complete the program on the first flight for the full reward. Something for everyone!

[CaptRobau]

I like the idea of programs. Would add a nice goal for players, both new and old and has an inherent skill progression. Real space programs often also use very steps to reach their goal. Something like a manned landing on Duna could progress like this:

1. Duna probe (bonus points if orbiter instead of flyby)

Teaches players how to intercept Duna and how maneuvers around the planet work.

2. Duna unmanned lander

Teaches players how to cope with Duna's thin atmosphere when landing.

3. Duna/Ike manned flyby (bonus points if orbiter instead of flyby)

Applies the lessons of 1 to the heavier manned craft and gives players a design for later missions.

4. Ike manned landing

A practice run for a later Duna landing. It gives player an idea of how landing a manned lander far away from Kerbin will feel, while not being as hard as Duna.

5. Duna manned landing

The culmination of all that you've learned.

Follow up missions

For people who want to return to Duna, missions such as land on one of the poles or cover 10km with a rover or something.

This basic setup works for almost every celestial body, but can be differentiated for each planet. For Moho there would be no preliminary landings on its moons (as it has none), Laythe or Eve would have a follow mission that has you flying a plane in its atmosphere, etc.

Edited July 22, 2014 by CaptRobau

[peadar1987]

I'd probably even break down the flyby and orbit stages. You need a lot of delta-V to enter orbit around some planets (I'm looking at you Moho!)

But it would be very important that players could jump into the program at whatever level they felt comfortable with, and without sacrificing the rewards on the way. The "Duna Program" should have a fixed reward, I think. If you do all the stages individually, you get a bunch of small rewards. If you jump straight to the end, you get the entire pot.

[CaptRobau]

I grouped them because that would make it more intuitive, as tasks can be made optional. For example the Explore the Mun contract in stock has 4 goals (orbit, land, etc.), which can be gotten in any order and are optional in respect to one another. I grouped the flyby/orbiter to make it so that when one tries an orbiter and fails, the flyby will still be available to get without the player having to get a new contract or something.

In general the various steps could probably grouped into several bigger steps to achieve the 'jump straight to the end'.

1. Preparatory missions

One-star difficulty. Flyby, orbiter and lander probes.

2. Side missions

Two-star difficulty. In the case of Duna, this is visiting an asteroid or Ike as a test of manned deep space travel. If you don't accept this before finishing the main mission, then after this contract automatically disappears it won't reappear again as it is no longer a valid part of your preparation. Instead it will respawn as a separate contract worth less (visiting Deimos after you landed on Mars is less impressive or scientifically interesting than if you do it before).

3. Main Mission

Three-star difficulty. Manned science gathering in Duna SoI, orbiting and landing.

4. Advanced Mission

Three-star difficulty: All the follow-up missions. Activates after main missions are completed.

[peadar1987]

I see what you mean, and I suppose that seeing as you can jump into the program at any stage and still have full rewards, the difference between a separate mission, and a mission with a bonus is actually fairly trivial.

[TNM]

Oh...thread got moved.

Well, i see some got the idea (even before me it seems, reassuring). We will see how SQUAD envisions the progression, but i can't agree with ppl saying "its not needed" or "its already done, its fine as is". I'm quite sure SQUAD has more ideas on contracts, i was just interested to see other ideas as well.