exploitable contracts

[iteration2]

I think the contract system is a great framework for moving forward, but as it stands now, it's very broken. In particular, I've found that, if my goal is to make money and advance science, actually going into space, especially when that involves traveling to other planets/moons, is not only unnecessary, but much, much slower than simply doing landed, splashdown, and atmospheric tests on Kerbin.

Last night I launched my first Mun mission since 0.24. One would think the goal of such a costly and time consuming endeavor would be the scientific or funding boost from such a historic step, but given the uneven rewards given by the procedural contract generator, I gained science much more quickly with the mission that followed the Mun landing: Lobbing an unmanned tank of fuel into the sea, then "testing" some decouplers, engines, and landing gear that I'd bolted haphazardly onto it.

I love the idea of being paid to test various parts I might not otherwise be using, especially when the testing parameters are challenging to achieve, but currently the rewards are completely out of whack.

Also, I think it's a bad idea to offer science as a reward for an endless parade of repeatable quests. Previously, increasing science required you to expand ever outward and explore new worlds. That seemed to perfectly exemplify the spirit of the game, and really should be an inviolate design goal. Currently, we've got a system that's akin to being able to efficiently reach a level cap in an MMO by killing the level 1 pigs in the starting area.

If the contracts only rewarded currency, they would still have an important purpose in the game, and balancing contracts (for money) and exploration (for science), would be an important aspect of play. Instead of being an either/or proposition, contracts could give you the money you'd need to build ships capable of exploration, which would be necessary to gain science, which would unlock more contracts, and so on.

All that being said, though, I think that overall, a lot of great work has gone into this game, and the contracts, while currently broken, offer a lot of promise.

[Yarrula]

I don't think that the contract system is broken. It may not be polished to the final balanced gleam that some would like, but it does work well. If you know what you're doing and can wring every last drop of science out of a biome, of course progress is quick. Your experience at the game allows you to progress faster than someone who has never flown into orbit before.

I haven't found that the science reward part of contracts to be over powered. The most I've seen is 150ish science for testing some part in orbit of the Mun. I can get 10x that by landing a tricked out science lander on any biome on Minmus. It's a nice boost to get those final few points to unlock a node, but I wouldn't call it a primary source past the first few tiers of parts.

If you revert failed flights, of course you never lose money. I haven't got a solution for that issue yet. If your launches always succeed because you know what you're doing, you don't waste money either. I see that as a feature, not a bug or balance issue.

[acerola]

I agree with iteration2. Funds should be grindable. You should be able to repeat contracts to get more funds. But not science. Completing the same kind of contract should not give you unlimited science. It is possible, for example, to unlock all science techs without even launching a vessel. You just need to repeat landed part tests. Removing the science reward from the contracts is a good idea.

[Yarrula]

Is it just a quirk of the procedural contract system that you are finding all these contracts for landed parts and science? My contracts for landed parts give mostly single digit science rewards. It would take forever to try and finish the tree like that.

[iteration2]

If you know what you're doing and can wring every last drop of science out of a biome, of course progress is quick.

My point is that you don't need to wring ANY science out of biomes anymore. You can progress through the tech tree without ever directing any rockets anywhere but straight up, use no science equipment (or even crew), and in many cases you don't even need to launch.

I haven't found that the science reward part of contracts to be over powered. The most I've seen is 150ish science for testing some part in orbit of the Mun.

I've gotten lots of contracts that give around 100 science for testing stuff (especially late-game engines) on the launchpad, kerbin atmosphere, and splashed down. I built a ship that just has a mainsail for lifting, a large fuel tank, a probe core, and some parachutes. The mainsail is powerful enough to get pretty much any payload to the appropriate height/speed for testing, and you get so many contracts that it's easy to find one at launch, one in atmosphere, and one after splashdown. A trivial mission that takes about 3 minutes can fulfill all of those contracts and reward a couple hundred science and over a hundred thousand funds.

My scientific and funding endeavors took a serious efficiency hit when I put off lobbing random spaceship parts into the ocean to undertake a successful mun landing (despite fulfilling the moon landing contract and rescuing a kerbalnaut from orbit on the way).

[Talavar]

Making money, and advancing science.. Extra-planetary mission 600k with advancement. Science value 1500-2000. Launching tests, mundane funds, and 30 science at the most? I have to disagree with you iteration, especially on the science part. I would say maybe to the beginning KSP user you way would seem faster. But I can land on other planets within 10 minutes and collect an ENORMOUS amount of science.. Granted I unlocked most of my science tree branch first! You have to keep in mind that the funds are simply to allow you to obtain science.. so if you break even on cash, but come back with 1000+ science then you have gained something!

Remember to take 3 of each science project with you.. Hit high orbit, Low orbit/atmosphere, then landed. then your surface sample, eva reports, crew reports. If you take all of that back home with you, you make a killing in science!

Edited July 24, 2014 by Talavar

[Kerbart]

I agree with iteration2. Funds should be grindable. You should be able to repeat contracts to get more funds. But not science. Completing the same kind of contract should not give you unlimited science. It is possible, for example, to unlock all science techs without even launching a vessel. You just need to repeat landed part tests. Removing the science reward from the contracts is a good idea.

I disagree. Every time you conduct an experiment, you learn something. That's what the experiment is meant for. Science! A contract on the other hand. I hire a trucker to move a container from A to B. I pay the trucker $500. One week later, without asking anything, the trucker shows up telling me he moved another container and wants another $500? I don't think so. Not until I contracted him for another move.

What I do agree with is that the amount of science awarded for contracts is disproportionate to the effort made and I expect a lot of tweaking in new versions. Point twenty-four was all about getting the infrastructure of contracts out; I hope to see improvements in the contacts in later versions:

• Part testing that requires the part to be returned
  
• Diminishing returns of science on contracts OR...
  
• "Do science" missions with particular parts. "Do science in Minmus Obrit with material container #12753 and return it to Kerbin". Material Container #12753 will be available under the science parts as long as the contract is active, something along those lines.
  

[iteration2]

Is it just a quirk of the procedural contract system that you are finding all these contracts for landed parts and science? My contracts for landed parts give mostly single digit science rewards. It would take forever to try and finish the tree like that.

I think the contract rewards scale up with the level of tech you're testing. Testing a low tier engine doesn't give much, and I haven't tried doing an entire game without a single launch. I also did a bunch of aerial tests and orbits, some of which were a bit difficult, to jumpstart my early science. But as I've progressed through the tree, I get contracts that are basically the exact same tasks, but with higher tier parts, and the rewards scale up to values that are still significant even for unlocking end-game tech. And since all of these tests are easy to do with full ship recovery (if a splashdown isn't required, I usually just send the rocket straight up, and it ends up landing right next to the launchpad) there's no reason not to use the largest, most overpowered engines with an excess of fuel, which makes all the aerial tests extremely easy.

[iteration2]

But I can land on other planets within 10 minutes and collect an ENORMOUS amount of science.

You can undertake an entire interplanetary mission in 10 minutes? I'd spend longer than that just designing the ship. My last mission to Eve (using nuclear engines) took almost 10 minutes just for the Kerbin -> Eve transfer burn (albeit, with a larger ship than was necessary). Sure, I got over 1000 science, but compared to the 200 I can get by launching a ship about a kilometer into the ocean in a few minutes, the choice seems like a no-brainer.

[acerola]

Every time you conduct an experiment, you learn something.

Not true. If you conduct the same experiment on the same place you get diminishing returns. After 3 or 4 they yield no science. And that's good. That forces you to go other places.

On the other hand, you can take the same (or very similar) contracts repeatedly and get the same amount of science. Right now I am getting over 70 science to test a part on the launch pad, which takes like 5 seconds to complete and costs nothing since you recover everything at 100%.

The science awarded by the contracts should at least have the some diminishing returns mechanics, like the experiments do.

[Talavar]

Yes, Splashdown tests can yield some science if you stack a bunch of them all together, But I personally haven't seen that many of them in my mission control that often to be able to stack up for 200 science repeatedly. Maybe your just getting lucky, either that, or you have to be exaggerating a bit.. And yes, I do interplanetary missions in about 10 minutes. If you're rushing to get science quickly, you don't sit around and admire the view. I have a ship already built that can cover all planets out to Jool. So its not a matter of building the ship, It's simply a matter of waiting for my best launch window. You have to keep in mind, there are no Biomes on other planets, so you don't have to pick a specific landing spot. You fly there, Land, collect samples eva assesment, get back on crew report, then do each experiment as your taking off again.. literally only takes a minute to do the experiments while your leaving the planet hitting each level of orbit if you have them key binded. I got it down to a "science".. Pun intended.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Talavar

[acerola]

I think you guys are missing the point here when iteration2 said "reach a level cap in an MMO by killing the level 1 pigs in the starting area".

Experiments have diminishing returns. So if you do the same experiment in the same place, after 3 or 4 you get no science. Contracts are the opposite. The more you do, the more science you get, doing the same type of contract in the same place.

With experiments, can you unlock all science tech without leaving Kerbin? No. With contracts you can.

[Talavar]

I think you guys are missing the point here when iteration2 said "reach a level cap in an MMO by killing the level 1 pigs in the starting area".

Experiments have diminishing returns. So if you do the same experiment in the same place, after 3 or 4 you get no science. Contracts are the opposite. The more you do, the more science you get, doing the same type of contract in the same place.

With experiments, can you unlock all science tech without leaving Kerbin? No. With contracts you can.

Granted. Understandable, but who sits on Kerbin all day doing lame contracts? lol