My personal feedback as a kerbal semi veteran on the new .24 update

[Dombi]

So even though no one really knows me around, I have been playing since the old days of .18. I've been observing the forums ever since and posting once in a while but I'm not really the guy who is active in the comunity. I have almost 1000 hours of KSP on my steam account and I can say (sorry everyone) that I played alot more hours before I bought the game last summer.

This is by far the best game I have ever played even as it is or as it was on .18 when I first played it. Every update is just another small step into the awesome gaming experience that is in this game.

As a KSP semi-veteran I feel like I can already say what really are the most interesting things to do in KSP and how to get closer to that utopian status of infinite gaming fun. This of course is all a personal view based on my experience.

Starting with funds

KSP could really add a tycoon series feeling to the game by giving us alot more stuff to buy and to achieve. For example, I'm thinking of making some buildings buyable in the KSC while others would be upgradeable. The VAB could start out really small then need improvements for larger rockets. Same with the launchpad while the SPH and the runway would have to be built from scratch.

Also maybe have the ability to choose where the KSC first starts and the ability to buy a new one for example in one of the poles or in another continent.

In a lot of ways I feel identified with what Hyomoto wrote in this article http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/entries/1601-Funds-science-unlocks-progression-etc

I would surely love to see the parts you need as being ordered then entering your stock after some days. When you would recover them from a flight they would get back to your stock (which could be in a warehouse also buyable and upgradeable).

This would finally turn KSP into a space program simulator instead of the space flight simulator with a sandbox approach that it is right now

On with contracts

I feel kind of bad for myself right now. I've been waiting for quite a while for this update and after some days of playing it I don't feel contracts are really that much fun. And I'm scared it might be just me and my playing style, but here is my opinion on this. Procedurally created contracts look all the same for me. The fact that I'm constantly being bombarded with dozens of silly contracts day after day makes me feel like I'm in a hamster wheel.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that they should disappear. Instead they should be substantially reduced. They should be like side quests for your main goal. An interesting way of geting a little bit more funds or science or whatever.

About this whatever. Contracts should reward other goodies from time to time, like an X number of parts to your stock or even to unlock a part forever. Even maybe a whole science branch. Or a new trained Kerbal to your crew (I know some already do but that doesn't add a lot to the game. I'll get back to that later on). Also this kind of contracts should be more varied and focus on real space missions. No one is asking SpaceX to test said parachute on their flight (I mean, it might be possible but it's not the norm). Instead maybe focus on real missions like sending satelites to LKO, HKO, GSO, Polar Orbit, put a kerbal or a probe on said location in Kerbin, perform a rendez-vous, send a kerbal to fix a satellite, land a rover on said planet and walk for X kms, build a space station or a mun station, send a constelation of satellites, possibilities are endless and way more fun than testing the Rockomax Brand decoupler splashed down on Kerbin's oceans.

For the non procedurally created contracts. This is for what I'm playing right now. It gives a sense of accomplishment and of advancing in some way with the game. It makes me eager to see at least what are they going to ask me after I explore Duna and Ike. It should be extended with the stepping stones of a real space program. KSP starts out good with the Launch a vessel and achieve said altitude but then it just stops and just asks you to explore all the planets and that's it. Stuff like, achieve orbit, put a kerbal in orbit, perform a rendez-vous, dock two vessels in said orbit, bring 3 kerbals to the mun and also some of the objectives I mentioned in the procedural contracts would feel like I'm really getting somewhere. Maybe even have a finale for the game after you accomplish everything on the main contract branch. I mean... If a game has a career mode you should expect it to bring you somewhere in the end. Otherwise it's just an evolved sandbox.

Also concerning crew and kerbals

I know this is probably going to get a lot of attention in the next updates but still I have the need to put in my thoughts about it. Kerbals should spend a big amount of time in training and this training should be well paid. With this I mean that you shouldn't have an infinite number of actively ready to loose their lifes Kerbals. They would turn out to be another precious resource that you don't want to waste. Also, the rewards you get from a manned mission should differ slightly from the ones you get from an unmanned mission. As in, manned mission = a lot of reputation; unmanned mission = a little bit more of science perhaps.

Some thought could be put into this and articulate it with the reputation system. For example, have a low enough reputation and putting one single Kerbal in your ship could drain all your funds, maybe even prevent you from having a manned vehicle at all while your reputation is so low.

Also, stranded kerbals should have a counter on them. Take too long to rescue them and they will die with everything that it implies for your space program. And by the way, also make the hitchiker container play a significant role in the game

On reputation

Reputation should mean how eager your kerbals are to go inside your vessel. It means less money to put kerbals in a vehicle when you have a high reputation and vice versa

Also (and I think this already happens but since every contract is procedural I can't really differenciate between them) it should mean better paid, more risky and more fun contracts. Maybe it should even put a limit on the science you can unlock or on the buildings you can build or upgrade or on how many active kerbals you can have. Something that would feel like a character level in RPGs.

Also it should grow real slow and go down a little bit when you have a catastrophic failure in a vessel, a significant amount when you fail a mission, and a lot when you kill a kerbal.

On the general gaming experience

So the first thing I did in .24 (to reproduce a fairly common forum topic) was start a new career, click F12 and activate the hardcore mode. And believe me... Right now, I can't imagine myself playing KSP in any other way than this one. So if you never tried it, if are thinking of doing it later or if you don't even like the concept, trust me,try it right now and you won't regret it.

It's an incredible way to have a really different gaming experience and to really taste what it is like to rescue a stranded kerbal on the Mun for the third time and end up killing him in the process while your funds are decreasing really fast. But that's ok, because sometimes you win and sometimes you lose, and that's what gaming should be about. KSP has been about finding a solution to the puzzle, making small corrections to your solution, f5, f9, rinse, repeat. In hardcore mode it's about double or triple checking every design and dealing with the consequences of it. It's about testing every new launch system and trying to find solutions to unexpected new problems. It's about dealing with the fact that that ship is gone and there's nothing you can do except learn from it. Heck, it's a whole new experience from the previous sandbox mode and I'm really glad Squad implemented this as I couldn't get away from the F9 key when my frustration peaked to a certain point. Unfortunately it will make the learning curve even steeper and higher. But as I'm pretty sure you remember, this steep curve is what makes up for legendary games like XCOM and KSP.

So sandbox should ultimately be exactly that, a sandbox where you can try and correct and have nothing to lose. While a career is also precisely what it is, a place where you have to deal with the consequences of your choices and understand the impacts they will have on your future.

Before I finish I have to say once again that I love KSP and the .24 was as incredible addition to what is already a great game. This is just my way of giving away some constructive feedback to Squad but also to see if I'm on the same page as everyone who visits the forums. So feel free to share your thoughts and ideas on what I just wrote or on what you think would be the logical development of KSP in the future.

Cheers and have fun

Edited July 23, 2014 by Dombi

[PeterPan]

Great post. Maybe you could have some fun with the BTSM mod, which works only in 23.5 until now, though .

My feelings about the contracts are just the same.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/61632-0-23-5-Better-Than-Starting-Manned-Career-Mode-Redefined-%28v1-57-June-12th%29

[Dombi]

Nice sugestion. I had never heard of BTSM but am really interested now. I will check out regularly for the .24 update then will try it.

Thanks for the feedback.

[pa1983]

I agree with most of this. Contracts atm are just dumb. I figured it would be more missions in the line of how real space programs progressed but no.

Atm it dont make sense why one would test a jet engine on the moon, we know it dont work there. Or testing a decoupler in water? I mean why?

Procedural contracts should still fallow some rules that make sense so one can test a part in flight where it makes sense.

[Bomoo]

Also concerning crew and kerbals

I know this is probably going to get a lot of attention in the next updates but still I have the need to put in my thoughts about it. Kerbals should spend a big amount of time in training and this training should be well paid. With this I mean that you shouldn't have an infinite number of actively ready to loose their lifes Kerbals. They would turn out to be another precious resource that you don't want to waste.

I'd love to see them take a bit of an XCOM-y approach to personnel management. Not necessarily a full stat block and personal inventory, but some kind of kerbal character progression system, possibly with medals for extraordinary achievements. I believe the Final Frontier mod attempts something like this.

[Hyomoto]

Great post. Maybe you could have some fun with the BTSM mod, which works only in 23.5 until now, though .

My feelings about the contracts are just the same.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/61632-0-23-5-Better-Than-Starting-Manned-Career-Mode-Redefined-%28v1-57-June-12th%29

A lot of people are afraid of having structure in the game, but I think this is whyâ€â€holding them down isn't user-friendly and only serves the sadist. BTSM is definitely to enforce its standards upon you in lieu of Squad's. His mod will probably evolve, and there are parts of it I agree with but let's just look at the title: "Better Than Starting Manned". The problem with manned flights in KSP is that they are cheaper than probes, not that it's illogical. It's a game, who cares what you send up? We aren't recreating mankind's first steps into the Stygian void, we're trying to get a rocket made of cardboard and children's wishes to fly. You have to add a cost to Kerbal's that measures up against the cost of probes to give the player a reason to choose. The problem with sending Kerbal's is that it requires less resources and is worth more science for the very minor setback of possibly having them die and replaced by another identical Kerbal. With quicksave and reverting, this cost of loss is reduced to nil so the only thing that matters is Kerbals can stay in space forever and a probe needs batteries.

Whether you increase the cost of losing a Kerbal or introduce another type of cost is fine, but saying the player must launch probes first because they must isn't a solution. This is what I think makes people go bananas over any type of limitation in Career mode, everyone believes THIS is the alternative to no restrictions.

[PeterPan]

Did you really play BTSM? The point is: it's more difficult to reach something, e.g. "land a Kerbal on the Mun", and therefore

it's way more fun to overcome the given problems and accomplish something. If somebody doesn't like this - no problem, just try another mod...

[OminousPenguin]

I completely agree OP.

Career is currently just sandbox with science. I'd love for there to actually be some sort of challenge.

I started doing the contracts but flying a rocket into the sea and firing the solid booster which I had set to 1 fuel doesn't pose any challenge. Nor does rescuing my 3rd consecutive Kerbal from orbit.

I realised this was less fun than .23.5 and figured I should just ignore contracts for now. (Which I could safely do having acquired a small fortune from a few basic contracts and rockets being cheap as chips.)

[Red Iron Crown]

The problem with manned flights in KSP is that they are cheaper than probes, not that it's illogical. It's a game, who cares what you send up? We aren't recreating mankind's first steps into the Stygian void, we're trying to get a rocket made of cardboard and children's wishes to fly. You have to add a cost to Kerbal's that measures up against the cost of probes to give the player a reason to choose. The problem with sending Kerbal's is that it requires less resources and is worth more science for the very minor setback of possibly having them die and replaced by another identical Kerbal.

How do you figure manned ships use fewer resources? The low mass of a probe core compared to a manned capsule means the orbital stage and lifter can be proportionally smaller and cheaper, which in my experience more than offsets any additional cost for a stronger electrical system, if required. Has your experience been different?

[autumnalequinox]

just stumbled upon this thread and I want to say I greatly agree with it. It matches my own play-style and expectations. I play KSP as a space program simulator, less a flight sim. I too have had some disappointment with the contracts, but have found it improved slightly with MissionControllerExtended and Fine Print, both of which add a variety of missions (from sat launches to base building). Still some issues, though...

Otherwise I absolutely agree in your vision for the game, and hope at least the framework can be laid for it to be accomplished with mods if not in the core gameplay itself. I have yet to play hardcore mode, however, and instead use MCE's penalty button which deducts funds for reverting flights (basically you pay for a "simulator" and still have to pay the crew and costs of the simulation). I also play with Dang it! which adds random part mishaps, ala Apollo 13.

[Hyomoto]

How do you figure manned ships use fewer resources? The low mass of a probe core compared to a manned capsule means the orbital stage and lifter can be proportionally smaller and cheaper, which in my experience more than offsets any additional cost for a stronger electrical system, if required. Has your experience been different?

It's actually rather simple. Probes cost electricity to remain in space. Kerbals require what? A larger rocket? Is that really a limiting factor right now? After launch, Kerbals can remain up indefinitely without additional resource support. Probes require electricity. With the addition of solar panels they are cheaper and feasible, but Kerbals still have more FREE advantages. They can obtain crew reports, EVA reports in a large number of locations, plant flags and take soil samples for no additional cost or weight. They can also clear out experiments and repair broken pieces. Sorry, but an additional 0.7 tonnes isn't a restrictive factor or consideration here. If Kerbals had additional non-regenerating resources electricity may seem a cheap alternative and add incentive to probes, but as it stands the additional weight doesn't matter versus electricity.

[metl]

Everyone also needs to keep in mind that this is "First Contract" in every sense of the phrase. The contract portion was JUST added. Much like a placeholder texture or part, it is simply there to show the system works and to find bugs. Since my first time playing, Squad has continued to impress me with the level of quality put into this game. Now that the system is in, I have full faith that it will be optimized and improved. Remember, an "Administration" building is on the horizon with 0.25 and so far we have no idea what that will contain. But it is call an "administration" building. I would say it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what that will be, but seeing as how we are all rocket scientists, maybe it does?