A much more logical science system.

[johnnyboy76]

The science system, ever since it was first introduced, never sat right with me. Every time I've completed the tech tree in various versions, with various mods, it's just never clicked as a fun game mechanic. I started thinking on this earlier today, and realized why - it just doesn't make any SENSE! Instead of bits and pieces of dirt somehow being able to help develop rocket parts, currency could be used for R&D Points, with it being expensive to develop new parts. Science could be sold for a large amount of currency to various groups, increasing your overall reputation, or "released" publicly for a large reputation boost. This of course means you could develop your space program purely via contracts - meaning you are effectively a private space program. Another improvement that could be made is reputation affecting the quality of your scientists - More gifted individuals being willing to work in the rather explosive environment of the KSC. This could make tech nodes cost less, or maybe all gathered science gets a small multiplier on return, depending on your scientist quality. Post your ideas!

(edit) Lurkers unite!

[LethalDose]

Unless I'm misreading your post, you're essentially suggesting a mechanism to exchange funds for science, or vice-versa.

One of the announced plans for Funds/Rep/Science is for all of these resources to exchangeable for the others. It hasn't been mentioned in a while, but it's something we can probably expect to see sometime in the next few updates.

[M3tal_Warrior]

If I understood you right, you suggest science being basically knowledge about various aspects of visited orbital bodies, ship travel (returning ships) and part testing. This knowledge could be sold for hard cash to companies who give you a small reputation boost, or released for free to the public, then just gaining a huge amount of reputation. This both makes quite sense, modeling real world science/patents/knowledge. Also this knowledge shouldn't be 'sold away' but just given to other companies in return for cash, thus you stack up knowledge the more you progress into space.

Reputation would be a multiplier on Kerbals traits/skills; the more reputation the better Kerbals wanting to work for you. This would make perfect sense too, and could be tied to the suggestions made in the Love for Kerbals thread.

Developing parts would then be the work of special Kerbal scientists you can hire (like astronauts) and both need tons of money and knowledge about the universe. Also the knowledge possessed should act more as water level, while the knowledge needed for said part to research would be a threshold which would decrease with the rising quality/size of your science staff. The money needed for research would decrease with better/bigger staff too (but staff costing money to sustain, so no spamming Kerbals into science jobs).

I suggest part research working like that:

-> you possess enough knowledge & money to research said part with one scientist available (you have to have at least one); company XY is interested in doing the research as joint venture

-> you pay the money and get 5 prototypes for free from the company, with 4 contracts to test the stuff under different conditions (so there's one spare & you gain knowledge by testing)

-> if you need more prototypes, you have to pay 20% of the initial research costs for each prototype (multiple times more than the stock price afterwards, so there's sense in those contracts)

-> you have to finish all contracts to let that part be mass-produced and cost only the standard price

In the end there will be need for Kerbals to have more than just courage and stupidity as traits, but it'll be tons of fun to train your Kerbals (see the aforementioned thread) and see them growing with your space agency empire.

I'd LOVE to see this coming!

[johnnyboy76]

Dang. I searched around a bit, but I must've not used the right terms... but no, that's not all I'm suggesting. I mean that science gathered in a mission is seperate from R&D - It makes no sense to have a bit of dirt grabbed from minmus be able to be used to get rocket parts. I'd like it to be possible to fill up the tech tree (Slowly) by contracts alone, I'd actually like them to be a massive factor in general for R&D. As it is, funds are incredibly easy to get,and as Scott Manely demonstrated, it is possible to fill up the tech tree in .24 in 2 flights.It's a bit different from just a simple exchange between rep, science, and currency.

(edit) Thank you, m3tal, you said that much better than I was able to.

Edited July 25, 2014 by johnnyboy76

[M3tal_Warrior]

Maybe I should try to do a blog post about merging science, space exploration/colonization and Kerbals experiences, traits and virtues. I think this would add a lot more to the game and be an easy node for multiple 'extension packs' and additional content.

Edith said:

I love management games, and this is about the only sandbox game I play that's able to logically sustain a management component, and in fact just makes sense with one.

Edited July 25, 2014 by M3tal_Warrior

[Red Iron Crown]

That is some deep, deep lurking, johnnyboy76. Welcome to the surface.

It never sat right with me either that returning science results progresses the player to better parts. It should be currency spent on developing better parts. Science should be the goal of contracts to generate funds.

[Sirrobert]

The way I've always seen it, science is actually a science BUDGET, which can be used to fund research into new parts.

This budget is seperate from your other budget, but (once it gets implented), you will be able to take funds out of budget 1 to fill holes in budget 2

As it is, funds are incredibly easy to get,and as Scott Manely demonstrated, it is possible to fill up the tech tree in .24 in 2 flights.It's a bit different from just a simple exchange between rep, science, and currency.

(edit) Thank you, m3tal, you said that much better than I was able to.

Just because one of the best players in the game can do that, doesn't mean the avarage guy can.

Scott Manley is not a messuring stick for how easy/difficult the game is

Edited July 26, 2014 by Sirrobert

[johnnyboy76]

I'm not trying to use him as a measuring stick - it's just that it's POSSIBLE to finish the tree in 2 flights. That's part of the issue I have with the current science system. It's so easy to finish out the tech tree... Ideally, I think each part should be individually researched, through different research branches. Maybe reputation could also give you a scientist hire list, with different scientist specializing in different types of parts.

[Fingal]

Another way to make the tech tree more interesting would be to require achievements as well as science to unlock parts more science. Just like the real space program, you'd have to try things in orbit first, such as completing an orbital rendezvous before you get docking ports, or rework the EVAs slightly so that you start off with tethered space suits and only get portable life support systems once you complete a certain task on an EVA in orbit.

[Renegrade]

The way I've always seen it, science is actually a science BUDGET, which can be used to fund research into new parts.

That's how I've seen it too, basically. Although I see it even more abstractly - it's kinda like an approval rating, how well Kongress or the Kuma views the progress of KASA/etc, and how much more R&D they're willing to fund.

Just because one of the best players in the game can do that, doesn't mean the avarage guy can.

Scott Manley is not a messuring stick for how easy/difficult the game is

Actually the technique he used for 0.24 is not all that challenging. It's just.. drudgery, with a bit of explosive staging exploityness. I think any 'intermediate' KSP player could pull it off...

[Sunshine]

I HATE the current "science grinding" so much that I still play sandbox instead of science/career.

So I a gree with your post, the science systems can needs alots of love.

A more authentic R&D department would be great.

[M3tal_Warrior]

@jonnyboy76

Blog post finished, maybe you might have some cool ideas on it too: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/entries/1610-Kerbals-science-and-management-The-shrouded-catacombs-of-KSC

[SkyRex94]

Just had some ideas for better experiments, posted it in another thread, but i think it would fit here too:

As suggested from somebody in another thread it could change, that you have to fullfill a certain task for a certain expirement to do it. As an example i could think of the impact-probe-experiment from interstellar. So maybe condense the Data-Readout-Experiments (Temp. Pressure, Gravioli, Seismic) into one single experiment calles Physical-Data or something, which you can do everywhere by the click of a button, but change the others and add new ones where you have to do something.

Some Ideas:

- The described Physics-Data-Readout-Experiment

- an Impactor Experiment (like the changed accelometer in interstellar) requiring an impactor on the surface

- a long term observing experiment (needs to run a certain time on the surface maybe 100 days before yielding the science)

- a ground behavior Experiment (needs to drive for a certain distance on the Surface of that biome before yielding science)

- a dive explorer Experiment (can only be done in 'splashed down' and needs maybe one day to finish)

- a drill core Experiment (as above, only in case 'landed')

- a big scale observing Experiment (can only be done in space low and high and requires time, like the long term observing)(so a proper use for sattelites)

- a Kerbal life endurance Experiment(certain time in a Lab on the Surface of the planet)

(- maybe a weather baloon experiment, but we would need a helium baloon part, which can only be done while flying or while in high atmosphere. And would yield more science if brought back so getting the data out of the baloon again is the next challenge)

[M3tal_Warrior]

Take my like! Moar complicated experiments!

[Justin Kerbice]

IMHO, the best science/R&D systems I've seen comes from X-COM ennemy unknow (yes, the good old one back in 486 days ) and Startopia, in both, you have some basic items, and do some research on them, and get more technologies/items you can use (by producing it) and sell.

The Tech tree could be made such way we start with:

-some basic plane parts (or even balloon parts) for a human historical career mode,

-some basic rockets parts (a probe core/a small command pod, a tank, an engine + launch clamps) for a space only/oriented career.

We can get money by fulfilling contracts (which doesn't give science basically), invest this money in R&D to hire scientists and develop new tech (more comfortable command pod, better probe core with SAS, solar panels, landing gears, more efficient engines, ...). When growing, contracts become more various and difficult/longer.

As X-COM, we may have the choice to sell parts, and here to others companies (which can create a "parts market" with some rare part are expensive).

By the way, the next building could be a factory (+ a propellants refinery).