Realism Of A Space Thing I'm Writing

[Nicholander]

Sorry if the title is stupid, but basically, after re-reading The Martian I thought I would write a little alternative history 2nd space race thing, that is of course realistic. And I don't know if it's realistic or not, so I'm putting this here so you can respond and say if it's realistic. (Why am I so bad at introductions?)

Basically, The Soviet Union still exists, it adopted a form of Democratic Socialism after Stalin's death, and the USSR's economy is strong and thriving. The Cold War is still going on, the US suffered more in the Repression, and there were some Democratic Socialist revolutions in NATO/Western Europe. Anyway, the space stuff. The USSR becomes the 2nd nation to land a man on The Moon in 1971 with Soyuz-19, the Buran is a thriving, safe, and reliable manned spacecraft, the Soviet Union made Mir-2 with the help of using the Buran, starting in 1993, and the US made Space Station Freedom using the space shuttle, starting in 1988.

Anyway, the Is-This-Realistic-Questions:

1. In it, the Space Shuttle program still shuts down in 2011, and Space Station Freedom is still in orbit, so NASA put's it in a "Shutdown" mode, with all non essential systems shutdown, to be turned on again when the US can once again send crew to it. They also raised it's orbit so it would De-orbit due to "Orbital drag" in 15 years, so NASA would have time to make a new spacecraft, with an upper stage attached to the station on the last Shuttle mission. Is this realistic? I'm not sure if NASA would still operate the Space Shuttle regardless of cost's to service and send crew to and from the space station, or if the US would just De-orbit Space Station Freedom.

2. In the beginning of it, NASA has to make a new launch vehicle. The Soviet's Energia rocket can get 100 tons to LEO, and in comparison, the US's largest launch vehicle, the Delta IV Heavy, can only get 29 tons to LEO. NASA end's up deciding, to instead of continue developing the Space Launch System (SLS), to use a modernized version of the Saturn V, with the 3rd stage replaced by a HydroLox stage with 6 RS-68 engines, basically a widened and lengthened Shuttle External Tank with cheaper and simpler SSME's. (That's pretty much what the RS-68 is). The 3rd stage is also the diameter of the 2nd and 1st stages. That's the Saturn VH (The H stands for HydroLox). Is this realistic? I know that some of the companies that made the original Saturn V parts have gone bankrupt, so I suppose NASA would pay some companies like ULA to build the Saturn VH parts. I see that this would not need the costly development of a new launch system, but would NASA really do this, if they had to make a new launch vehicle in a hurry to compete with the Soviets? Or would they still continue development of the SLS?

So, now that you've read them, if you know the answers, please post them! Also, I MIGHT add a few more questions.

[Sky_walker]

Sorry if the title is stupid, but basically, after re-reading The Martian I thought I would write a little alternative history 2nd space race thing, that is of course realistic.

You're off from doing stuff for the cube sat?

I thought you were busy helping to make it happen - in which case you wouldn't have time to do almost anything else, lol.

[Nicholander]

It's a tiny little side project, so I am doing stuff for the CubeSat. Don't be stupid.

[Ralathon]

1. In it, the Space Shuttle program still shuts down in 2011, and Space Station Freedom is still in orbit, so NASA put's it in a "Shutdown" mode, with all non essential systems shutdown, to be turned on again when the US can once again send crew to it. They also raised it's orbit so it would De-orbit due to "Orbital drag" in 15 years, so NASA would have time to make a new spacecraft, with an upper stage attached to the station on the last Shuttle mission. Is this realistic? I'm not sure if NASA would still operate the Space Shuttle regardless of cost's to service and send crew to and from the space station, or if the US would just De-orbit Space Station Freedom.

It kind of depends. If space station freedom is just there as a scientific endeavor like the ISS they would probably deorbit it. 15 years is a long time considering the breakneck speed of technological innovation nowadays, so the station would be horribly outdated. So if science is its only function they'd probably just deorbit the thing.

On the other hand, if it has a propellant depot containing large amounts of fuel they'll want to keep it up there. A propellant depot is extremely useful in orbit regardless of your technological innovation. As for the method used to boost the station, sure that'd work. Strapping a centaur stage to the station would give it plenty of dV to lift its orbit to the 600ish km you'd need.

2. In the beginning of it, NASA has to make a new launch vehicle. The Soviet's Energia rocket can get 100 tons to LEO, and in comparison, the US's largest launch vehicle, the Delta IV Heavy, can only get 29 tons to LEO. NASA end's up deciding, to instead of continue developing the Space Launch System (SLS), to use a modernized version of the Saturn V, with the 3rd stage replaced by a HydroLox stage with 6 RS-68 engines, basically a widened and lengthened Shuttle External Tank with cheaper and simpler SSME's. (That's pretty much what the RS-68 is). The 3rd stage is also the diameter of the 2nd and 1st stages. That's the Saturn VH (The H stands for HydroLox). Is this realistic? I know that some of the companies that made the original Saturn V parts have gone bankrupt, so I suppose NASA would pay some companies like ULA to build the Saturn VH parts. I see that this would not need the costly development of a new launch system, but would NASA really do this, if they had to make a new launch vehicle in a hurry to compete with the Soviets? Or would they still continue development of the SLS?

I doubt the saturn V S-1 had the TWR to get off the pad if you replace the S-VIb with a stage as wide as the first 2. I'd just make the 3th stage smaller and you'll be able to lift significant payloads. IIRC the Saturn V could lift about 120 tons to LEO.

[Nicholander]

Hmm... I see that is true for 1., but, for 2., remember: HydroLox is actually lighter then KeroLox, so i think it would actually be lighter then the original Saturn V's 3rd stage. If what you're saying is true, would attaching Shuttle SRB's on the first stage be enough? Would you have to add more segments?

[xenomorph555]

So, in this universe Khrushchev manages to de-stalinise tthe ussr, chelmoi never exists and korolev lives on with full funding on time for the N-1. Is this like a book or something your writing, sounds interesting. Anyway:

1.The time it would take to deorbit (15 years you said) is very sufficient to build a new ship and they could ask for soviet help if relations are good.

2.It's quite a good plan, they could easily reassign the old companys components to new companys.

[Nicholander]

Yeah, that's true xenomorph, though Chelomi still exists, but he doesn't really compete with Korolev, or well, at least he cooperates on the N1, accepting to build the engines. I guess he could not exsist in it, but then where would the Soviet's get there Proton rocket? Also, the space race starts when the Soviet premier Vladimir Chekov says in a speach on Febuary 11th 2015 to set a goal to land a man on Mars and return him safley to the Earth by 2026. And thus the second space race begins.

Edit: Relations where in fact good during the Clinton era, when the Liberal Bill Clinton in power in the US, and the Soviet's leader's (Which I forgot his name, but he was choosen to be premier in 1986 after the previous semi-hardline premier was assassinated, and resigned in 2000) "Reform and compromise" policy lead to 3 international space missions in the mid 90s, the Buran-Shuttle mission where the first Buran Snowstorm docked with Columbia in LEO, and 2 missions where the Buran docked with Freedom, and vice versa.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Nicholander

[Nicholander]

Oh, and because I thought you guys might be intrested, here's how it looks so far:

(Also, I forgot to mention, in this, all the characters are furries/anthros... I'm sorry if you think that is stupid and makes the story stupid. Sorry. And, because I forgot to mention it, Vladimir Chekov is an anthropomorphic fox) Anyway, enjoy!

"Chekov, what are your aims for the Soviet Union in 2015?"

The room was filled to the brim with press reporters, most were Soviet press, not state though. Some where state press, like Pravda and Vremya, and a few were even foreign press, like CNN and the BBC.

"Well, I believe The Soviet Union should further de-nuclearize, and move towards less hostile relations with The United States" Vladimir Chekov said into the large amount of microphones that were in front of his face. He was sitting at a large desk in the press hall of the Kremlin, the time was 7:34 AM Moscow Time, January 7th, 2015.

"Michael Johnson, CNN. Do you think the government of The United States will negotiate Anti-Nuclear Weapons treaties?" A reporter said while holding the microphone to the Soviet Premier.

"Yes, the 2012 election of Democratic president Barack Obama will probably lead to Arms reduction treaties"

"Valentin Korolev, Leningrad Star. What will be your space policy for 2015?" A 23 year old female news reporter asked while holding out the microphone.

"Well, at the moment we're not really clear on our space goals yet. A plan might be ready by March or even late February"

"Leon Mikhailov, Kiev Post. What is your view on the New Years Day Incident in North Korea?"

"Well, obviously, we support any attempt to over throw the Stalinist government of North Korea. Though unfortunately the coup was defeated, it certainly did dama-" Vladimir Chekov started to say before being interrupted by the minister of foreign affairs minister tapping on his shoulder.

"Premier, we have an urgent call from the Premier of the French Democratic Socialist Republic. They're reporting an uncomfortably large amount of American ships in the channel."

Chekov got up from his desk, looked at the audience of press and said:"Sorry, but I have an urgent call from France" He then followed Sergei Pavlov, an anthropomorphic Green feathered Falcon (The Foreign Affairs Minister) to his office, where he sat down in his chair. He then picked up the phone and asked: "Yes, this is the Premier of the USSR, the foreign minister told me about the American ships in the channel."

"Ah, yes. Radar stations and Sonar from Submarines showed that there are at least 14 U.S ships in the channel. And we wanted to ask if you could..."

RED SQUARE, FEBUARY 11TH, 2015

"God, MY back feels like crap..." Vladimir Chekov said to himself while walking up the stairs to the top of Lenin's Mausoleum.

"Yeah, just make sure to not say that on live TV, Premier" Said a man escorting him to the podium on top of the mausoleum.

"Okay, but when this speech is over I'll be getting Tylenol," He said in response, just before he stepped up to the podium.

In Red square, there where thousands of people in a huge crowd. In the back, there was at least a hundred TV cameras, all pointed towards the podium on top of Lenins Mausoleum.

The premier straightened his tie and started speaking, looking at the paper on the podium and sometimes then looking back up to the huge crowd of people.

"On this day, marks the 5th anniversary of the start of the revolt against the capitalist tyrants of western Europe. The heroic workers and peasants of The Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, and France..."

The speech continued on for 13 more minutes until Chekov got to an intresting bit...

"...And because of the great scientific advances in space that the Union Of Soviet Socialist Republics has acomplished, Sputnik, Vostok, Luna, Soyuz-19, Salyut, Mir, The Buran, and Mir-2, I set a new goal for the Soviet Union: To land a man on the planet Mars and return him safely to the Earth"

For 2 seconds, the entire crowd lay silent. Then, they erupted into very loud chanting and clapping, and it stayed that way for about 5 seconds.

Raising his voice to talk over the noise through the microphone, he said: "I also choose this goal to be completed by 2026, and for another goal to be to set up a permanent base on the Lunar surface"

The crowd erupted into clapping and chanting again, as it seemed that those few sentences spoken by one man would usher a new age in space exploration.

ALESKI KOMAROV walked down the halls of the building with the biggest smile on his face in years. The Politbureau had voted to multiply the budget of Roscosmos by 4. He walked around a corner, nearly bumping into an engineer and then opened the door to the confrence room. He then walked to the seat labeled "Chief Designer", ploncked down onto it and put his briefcase on the table. "Aleski, what are the documents for this meeting?" Said an anthropomorphic Bobcat, Sergei Ivanovich, the head of OKB-2, which was responsible for several modules of the Mir-2 space station. The excited anthropomorphic yellow scaled colored Raptor opened the briefcase and grabbed the papers in it and put them next to the case in a sloppy pile. He then picked up a stapled group of paper on the top of the stack and flipped it to the first page.

"It's a paper I made showing a few manned Mars mission concepts I thought of" He said while holding up the paper.

Aleski then pointed to a somewhat poorly made diagram while saying: "I call this concept "Mars 2X4", and it works by having 2 spacecraft that go to Mars. One, the ERV (Earth Return Vehicle) Lands on Mars with no crew, and once the crew has landed in a seperate spacecraft and done there experiments and what not, they board the ERV. They then lift off to Low Martian Orbit, do a trans Earth injection burn, reenter the atmosphere, and land safely in the USSR"

He then waited for a moment to see if there were any questions, but no one sitting at the table said anything, as they were more focused on reading the paper in Aleski's hand. Pointing to another diagram on the same page, he began speaking again: "The other spacecraft, the Mars Descent Vehicle, or MDV for short, is supposed to bring the crew to the surface of Mars, preferably next to the ERV. Also, it would be used as the Hab for the 2 week stay on Mars, so it can't be too cramped inside"

"So you essentially copied Mars Direct?" Said A senior engineer sitting near the other side of the table.

Everyone in the room mildly laughed and looked towards the engineer.

Looking somewhat embarrassed and annoyed, he flipped to the next page and pointed to another diagram and started talking again

"This is another concept I made, if you just laugh at the first one. I call it "CosmoMars", and It also has an ERV, which serves the same purpose as in Mars 2X4. But, there is also a "Mothership", or Mars Transit Vehicle (MTV) as I'll call it. It serves to carry the crew from Earth to Mars and back, It is assembled in Low Earth Orbit, does a Trans Mars Injection, and once at Mars it does a Mars Orbital Insertion burn. The crew then get into the MDV, which I explained before, and land on Mars next to the ERV, which landed there 2 years earlier. After they're done on the Martian surface, the crew board the ERV, lift off into Martian Orbit, rendezvous, and dock with the MTV. They them board the MTV, ditch the ERV, or well, Mars Ascent Vehicle as we should call it in this scenario, and then do a Tran Earth Injection burn. Then, after a 9 month wait from Mars, the MTV does an Earth Orbital Insertion burn, and finally, either a modified automated Soyuz or a Buran picks up the crew and returns them home"

Everyone in the room looked at the paper, and a few said "Hmmm..... good idea...".

With a smile of confidence, Aleski turned the page again and pointed to yet another diagram, while of course, explaining it.

"This concept is what I call "Mars 09", It has 3 vehicles, the MDV, the Mars Ascent Vehicle (MAV), And the Earth Transit Vehicle (ETV). The ETV's is supposed to bring the crew from Martian Orbit to Low Earth Orbit, I thought I might explain that because I just introduced a new vehicle. Anyway, the MAV lands on Mars first, then the crew come in the MDV, and then they get into the MAV and lift off to Mars Orbit after they've done. In the MAV, they then dock to the ETV, transfer to it, and ditch the MAV. The ETV then does a Trans Earth Injection, and once it arives at Earth, it does an Earth Orbital Insertion burn, and then the crew are picked up by another spacecraft amd return to Earth"

Most of the people in the room looked at and read Aleski's paper, though a few people were not paying attention, as if they were waiting for something.

"So, any questions?" Aleski said while panning the room for any raised hands or anything.

"For Mars 09, couldn't the spacecraft that lands on Earth be part of the ETV, instead of having a seperate vehicle be launched?" Asked a female voice from the near end of the table.

"Well. yes I do suppose so. It could be an enlarged Soyuz descent module, and it wouldn't be hard to design. Good point"

"Any more questions? No? So, now let's vote on which one we think is the best. Raise your hand if you support Mars 2X4" Aleski said after panning the room, to find that there was no one talking or raising their hand.

A couple senior engineers raised there hands.

"Okay, 2 people for Mars 2X4. Now if you support CosmoMars" Aleski said while writing something down on a sticky-note.

Almost everyone in the room raised their hands, and the few that didn't looked disappointed and a little upset.

"14 people, wow! Now, raise your hand if you support Mars 09"

Only 2 people raised their hands, Sergei Ivanovich and the head of Intercosmos.

"2 people, so CosmoMars it is then!" Said an excited Aleski.

The 14 people who supported CosmoMars started quietly chatting with each other, as Aleski organized his papers and glanced at the clock.

"Well uh, I think it's time for this confrence to wrap up" Said Aleski as he put his sloopy stack of papers back into the briefcase next to it.

Everyone got up from their seats and started exiting the room through the 3 doors, as they left Aleski tapped Sergei's shoulder, and said: "I see that you seem disappointed that Mars 09 didn't get choosen"

Sergei turned his head and looked at Aleski and said: "Yeah, I'm a little disappointed. But it's fine, the 2 concepts, CosmoMars and Mars 09 share the same goal"

"Yeah, and I can already tell that this is going to be fantastic for all of us!"

Chapter 2

"ARE YOU freaking kidding me?"

"No, the Soviets really did it"

It was what some people called "NASA's darkest hour", the Soviets had a space program with the worlds largest space station, Mir-2, cheapest spacecraft to orbit, the Buran, and a launch vehicle capable of getting 100 tons to orbit, the Energia. In comparison the US's largest launch vehicle, the Delta IV Heavy, could only get 29 tons to orbit. And the US's space station, Space Station Freedom, had been put into a "Shutdown" mode, still orbiting but all unnecessary systems shutdown, and to be reactivated when the US could send crew to it, since the shutdown of the Space Shuttle Program in 2011.

"I know Ted, but how do we even remotely compete?" Said David Mitch, an anthropomorphic Terrier, the head of NASA Deep Space Operations.

"Do you have any ideas on what we could do? Let's start with launch vehicles, since we somewhat have spacecraft covered with the Orion" Said Teddy Sanders, an anthropomorphic Kangaroo, the administrator of NASA.

David sighed and got up from the small confrence table and walked towards the whiteboard in the mini-confrence room, picked up a blue marker and said: "Well, though I'm more of a probe guy then a launch vehicle guy, I think there's some solutions. Our best launch vehicle, the Delta IV Heavy, can get 29 tons into LEO, and the Soviet's Energia can get 100 tons to LEO"

"So... what are our options? We could launch it in 29 ton sections using Delta IV Heavys though that would require at least more then 15 launches, and I'm assuming this is using a MTV" Said Teddy while looking at the diagrams David was writing on the whiteboard.

"Well, it's obvious that we need a heavier launch vehicle, capable of getting at least 80 tons to orbit. We could either speed up development of the Space Launch System, or..."

"Or what?" Asked a curious Teddy.

"We could use already used hardware, for example, we could use a modernized Saturn V, with the 3rd stage replaced with a HydroLox 3rd stage, like the space shuttles external tank and SSME's" Replied David, while writing something on the whiteboard.

Teddy stayed silent for a moment and put his hand on his forehead, and then said: "Are you serious? First: Use old hardware from the 60s? Even though it has been proven to work, the technology is ancient, and why would we waste time and money modernising it? Second: The companies that made the parts for the Saturn's have went bankrupt decades ago, so . how would we build it? Third: We would also have to redesign and remake the pad, and there's also countless other problems"

Edited July 30, 2014 by Nicholander

[Ralathon]

Hmm... I see that is true for 1., but, for 2., remember: HydroLox is actually lighter then KeroLox, so i think it would actually be lighter then the original Saturn V's 3rd stage. If what you're saying is true, would attaching Shuttle SRB's on the first stage be enough? Would you have to add more segments?

The saturn v 3th stage used hydrolox

Saturn V propellant usage:

S-1 = RP1 + LOx

S-2 = Hydrolox

S-3 = Hydrolox

Service module, Lunar descent stage and ascent stage all used Aerozine 50 + N2O4

And yea, you could strap some SRB's to the Saturn V to get the TWR you need, but that really complicates things. You need structural reinforcements in the first stage to make attachment points etc. By the time you got that working you are looking at a whole new rocket.

[Nicholander]

The saturn v 3th stage used hydrolox

Saturn V propellant usage:

S-1 = RP1 + LOx

S-2 = Hydrolox

S-3 = Hydrolox

Service module, Lunar descent stage and ascent stage all used Aerozine 50 + N2O4

And yea, you could strap some SRB's to the Saturn V to get the TWR you need, but that really complicates things. You need structural reinforcements in the first stage to make attachment points etc. By the time you got that working you are looking at a whole new rocket.

I am now infinite face palming for thinking that the Saturn V was completley KeroLox. *More infinite facepalm*. Also, I think you would you only need to actually just change the first stage. You would replace the 3rd stage and the 2nd stage would only need to be modernized to NASA's new man-rating standards. And if you did end up making a new rocket, at least it was made on a proven working base, unlike the SLS.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Nicholander

[peadar1987]

I like the way you're asking about the realism of the rockets when your cast of characters are spacefaring anthropomorphic marsupials!

Just out of curiosity, in your internal canon, were all of the original astronauts and world figures anthros as well? I imagine Khrushchev would have been some sort of porpoise or small whale.

[Nicholander]

Everyone is Anthros (So it includes all historical figures and astro/cosmonauts), and I would probably not think of Khruskhev as a porpoise or whale! Probably a Siberian husky.

[Seret]

I forgot to mention, in this, all the characters are furries/anthros...

IMO it would have been much more amusing to not point this out, just to see who's actually reading and paying attention.

[Nicholander]

Well, but I think readers should know that before they read, because they would be sure as heck confused when they see "Anthropomorphic yellow scaled raptor".

[rkman]

"Yes, the 2012 election of Democratic president Barack Obama will probably lead to Arms reduction treaties" .... FEBUARY 11TH, 2015

To me that is an odd statement to make 3 years after that election and one year before that presidential term ends.

"Probably will" refers to the future (relative to 2012), but by 2015 most of that future has already come to pass.

If the 2012 election of Obama would have lead to arms reduction treaties, then some of that should have materialized by 2015.

(removed irrelevant comment because your alternate history starts earlier than i thought it did)

Edited July 31, 2014 by rkman

[Seret]

Well, but I think readers should know that before they read, because they would be sure as heck confused when they see "Anthropomorphic yellow scaled raptor".

And therein lies the lols.

I'm kind of assuming that your intention when playing a setup with anthropomorphic talking animals straight is to extract lols, of course.

[Nicholander]

To me that is an odd statement to make 3 years after that election and one year before that presidential term ends.

"Probably will" refers to the future (relative to 2012), but by 2015 most of that future has already come to pass.

If the 2012 election of Obama would have lead to arms reduction treaties, then some of that should have materialized by 2015.

(removed irrelevant comment because your alternate history starts earlier than i thought it did)

Sorry i forgot to mention it, but, with the largest amount of election fraud in US history, a Republican candidate wins the 2008 election, and continues George W. Bush's policies. Obama first wins in the 2012 election, and so, he wins the 2016 election and get's 4 more years. Also, in this, he is more of a mix between the conservative and liberal political leanings in the U.S, and the Republicans are sometimes called "Hardliners", and the Democrats "Reformists". The U.S is starting to resemble the IRL last years of the USSR.

[Nicholander]

And therein lies the lols.

I'm kind of assuming that your intention when playing a setup with anthropomorphic talking animals straight is to extract lols, of course.

Well, it's more it's in the same universe/canon of another thing I created which rvolves around this anthropomorphic red scaled raptor named Nikolai Steerov, who is a Soviet soldier fighting The Democratic Republic Of The Congo. I thought of that in August 2013 and drawed a bunch drawings of it. I'd show one I uploaded to Imgur but it's hard to do that while using a Kindle.

[Guest]

I am now infinite face palming for thinking that the Saturn V was completley KeroLox. *More infinite facepalm*. Also, I think you would you only need to actually just change the first stage. You would replace the 3rd stage and the 2nd stage would only need to be modernized to NASA's new man-rating standards. And if you did end up making a new rocket, at least it was made on a proven working base, unlike the SLS.

Note, adding SRBs to Saturn V was an actual NASA proposal, so it's not unrealistic. In fact, what you're describing is similar to some things that were actually considered. Saturn-Shuttle was a real concept, for example, as was Saturn V with giant strap-on SRBs.

[Nicholander]

Note, adding SRBs to Saturn V was an actual NASA proposal, so it's not unrealistic. In fact, what you're describing is similar to some things that were actually considered. Saturn-Shuttle was a real concept, for example, as was Saturn V with giant strap-on SRBs.

Yeah, that Saturn is in a Velcro mod for Orbiter, though I don't remember the exact name (S-MV7[M] or something?), but in voyage it was called the Saturn VI. But that also extended the 1st and 3rd stages, so i think making an extra-large Shuttle External Tank inspired 3rd stage would way the same as the extensions, and both the Saturn VI and Saturn VH would have 4 shuttle SRB strap ons.