Naval Battle Club

Mr Tegu · August 17, 2015

But you do have a knack for making good looking ships; the original grisselbad and thraben look awesome, and armour is apparently useless now (I'll have to see what I can do about that tho).

Frozen_Heart · August 17, 2015

5. For the above 4 reasons, I won't contribute any further to the craft or make any further ships since it's evident that it's impossible for me to make a ship that has a good range, weapons and will survive a single damn volley (damn you Macey for even making me think this was a good idea)
Consider this my last submission unless I can be remotely convinced otherwise, I cannot even do a damn battle since my computer is a hunk of metal crap as well

Making a successful warship isn't easy. Keep trying until you're happy with the result. I've been building them since 0.18 before we even had armour plates. For every warship I'm happy with and ends up on the spacecraft exchange, at least 10 get built then thrown away.

Also You have range, weapons, armour, and acceleration: Pick 2 as trying to fit them all on the same ship just makes it poor at everything.

Not even me, Zekes, or Spartwo can make one that does everything. I pick acceleration and range but all of my ships can be 1 shotted and have mediocre weaponry.

If you give in you won't improve. Keep trying and you will get better.

AlexanderTeaH · August 17, 2015

http://i.imgur.com/aYk8ebI.png

That thing is so cute!

panzer1b · August 17, 2015

Making a successful warship isn't easy. Keep trying until you're happy with the result. I've been building them since 0.18 before we even had armour plates. For every warship I'm happy with and ends up on the spacecraft exchange, at least 10 get built then thrown away.
Also You have range, weapons, armour, and acceleration: Pick 2 as trying to fit them all on the same ship just makes it poor at everything.
Not even me, Zekes, or Spartwo can make one that does everything. I pick acceleration and range but all of my ships can be 1 shotted and have mediocre weaponry.
If you give in you won't improve. Keep trying and you will get better.

I try to make generalist ships, so its not impossible to have everything, my last design the SK-CRV-I C has 2-3K dV depending on how much firepower you get, is under 60t being pushed by 3 nukes (not great, but way more then decent in a world where 0.01 TWR seems common since alot of you guys use ions), and then you get good but not invincible armor (pretty much all of the high-end torpedoes will kill it with a solid hit from the correct angle or at least cut it in half leaving me with half a ship), and its firepower if actually good (in anti-capital configuration it has 4 1.25 hardpoints on the sides, and 4 forward ones, allowing both guided and unguided weapons to be used (in more fun config it has 16 smal guided missiles, 8 ibeams, 2 RT-5s).

Now im not claiming its that great a ship, but its resilient to the majority of commonplace weapons such as those used in Macey's series, pretty much immune to pocket ibeam+4 sepatrons or oscar-b+nosecone+48-7s, and 100% immune to those ant engine torps Macey used in the original series (those are all but worthless against anything but exposed pods these days anyways). It can and will die to well placed RT-5+structural panel but this is very rare, and usually the only way i can reliably kill it with weakish weapons is multiple shots that just overload the entire hull with subsequent hits. Its armor is more or less impossible to 1 shot vaporize with RT-5s or RT-10s that have just a basic impactor, more advcanced penetrators will destroy it, but with advanced penetrators the things become for all intents and purposes as effective as competitive weapons like poppers or my tripedoes (i made a RT-5 powered tripedo for part count, and it works pretty bloody well if you can actually aim in at someone properly (mk1 cockpit is used on every bloody one of my capitals as it lets me IVA aim properly (in unzoomed view shoot at the upper side of the entire crosshair assembly, crosshair itself is offcenter and too low, but the upper bar above it isnt).

Also, on a bit of an unrelated note, do you guys feel that weapons have gotten to the point that the only way to have a fair battle is to limit yourself to something prebuilt? Mass doesnt seem to play as much of an impact, as i have a 2t missile thatll wipe out anything reliably (uses XL-3 wheel), and part count either, as that missile is what, incredibly low part count at 7 or 8 with decoupler, not exactly an issue here. I think teh best way at least for future battles unbless someone comes up with some breakthrough armor is to have say a catalog of prebuilt weapons that eveyone deems fair, with say better ones being limited to smaller amounts on a ship or something of teh sort. I dont know if thisd work, but it would at least in my opinion make armor relevant, as currently the best way to play is a ship with firepower that can 1 shot or near 1 shot anything enemy has, and then just enough armor to protect from fighters and other weak crap.

zekes · August 17, 2015

Tegu makes me cri everytim

Alphasus · August 17, 2015

Zekes or someone here, can you test my first ship that is more than 100 tons? It's armor is triple layered on the top, with spacing and it has double layered side armor.

Link here:http://www./download/t2mxd20fbd4sm0c/Nouvelle-class_Battlecruiser.craft

panzer1b · August 17, 2015

Zekes or someone here, can you test my first ship that is more than 100 tons? It's armor is triple layered on the top, with spacing and it has double layered side armor.
Link here:http://www./download/t2mxd20fbd4sm0c/Nouvelle-class_Battlecruiser.craft

Im on it, also, im very close to done with the SK-CRV-I C model, so i should have that 55-60t ship i need to start our for fun battle, just need to fix one major flaw in its armor layout before i deploy it, not that it matters all that much as you arent going to be using capital ship weaponry against me (and neither will i against u), but im still trying to remove any excessive weaknesses.

Will post when im done testing your ship.

Ok, here is what i will say, its hull structure is pretty good, but its engine layout sucks. I just vaporized the engines with nothing but a salvo of 4 long ibeam+2 sepatron missiles, the standard main armarment of my SK-CRV-I which has in excess of 20 shots of that stuff, so while its hull may be great, there is too much part clipping in the back and engines are attached weakly. As for its weapons, ive had mixed results with them, the primary cannons are what id call average, effective vs all my ships, but you need to still hit partcicular areas to do anything catastrophic thatll actually disable it or at a minimum make it nolonger a threat to you.

Now as for improvements:

cut down on the armor near the front, if i want to take down ur main guns ill just fly a weapon straight down the throat so armoring the sides of the fron to that extent is meaningless. Next, while i dont have the time to actually rebuild your ship right now as i have too many ships im working on and i cant give you too much specific advice on how to, redesign the way the engines/rear fuel tanks are placed, in their current configuration, all it takes is a single good shot to that area and you loose mobility. Next, strengthen those side sponsons where ur ibeam weapons are located, they wobble so much that the weapons actually destroy your own ship at times (ok, maybee i dont know how to use them correctly, but firing a salvo ends with half of the shots stuck in your own ship). My final tip is to take a good look at what you want armored and what you dont, i see alot of armor in places that noone has any reason to even shoot at, and i see places (like teh rear of the engines) that lack any armor whatsoever. This is one thing i tend to spend alot of time on, layout design, and i make sure that armor is only where its actually needed, and not there just for the sake of it. Now if you can find a way to armor teh front and still allow yourself to use those forward missiles, then thats another story, but the way i see things, it makes alot more sense to focus on armoring the engines and possibly redesign the side missile mounts to both protect the weapons better, and also be less wobbly and exposed.

As for weapon improvements, ur 2 main weapons workj fairly well for what they are designed to do, accurate, fast, and can do some damage when they hit fast enough. Ur smaller missiles are bloody hard to actually hit something with, i know i may just not be used to them, but its basically impossible to control them once u light the engines, and there is no real way to aim them effectively as no cockpits, and the autoaim is derpy for some reason at least when shooting at my ships.

Finally, i would call its general protection if you count its weakspots similar to my older SK-CRV-I prototypes, if you know where to shoot it, it dies or is at a bare minimum crippled to a point it wont do much to you, and if you just fire at its center, it can take quite a beating from even higher end missiles.

Edited August 17, 2015 by panzer1b

Spartwo · August 17, 2015

Drive, armor, and weapons are 3 points of a triangle. You can only push 2 of them to the outer edge at one time. Everyone varies on this scale.

Alphasus · August 17, 2015

Im on it, also, im very close to done with the SK-CRV-I C model, so i should have that 55-60t ship i need to start our for fun battle, just need to fix one major flaw in its armor layout before i deploy it, not that it matters all that much as you arent going to be using capital ship weaponry against me (and neither will i against u), but im still trying to remove any excessive weaknesses.
Will post when im done testing your ship.
Ok, here is what i will say, its hull structure is pretty good, but its engine layout sucks. I just vaporized the engines with nothing but a salvo of 4 long ibeam+2 sepatron missiles, the standard main armarment of my SK-CRV-I which has in excess of 20 shots of that stuff, so while its hull may be great, there is too much part clipping in the back and engines are attached weakly. As for its weapons, ive had mixed results with them, the primary cannons are what id call average, effective vs all my ships, but you need to still hit partcicular areas to do anything catastrophic thatll actually disable it or at a minimum make it nolonger a threat to you.
Now as for improvements:
cut down on the armor near the front, if i want to take down ur main guns ill just fly a weapon straight down the throat so armoring the sides of the fron to that extent is meaningless. Next, while i dont have the time to actually rebuild your ship right now as i have too many ships im working on and i cant give you too much specific advice on how to, redesign the way the engines/rear fuel tanks are placed, in their current configuration, all it takes is a single good shot to that area and you loose mobility. Next, strengthen those side sponsons where ur ibeam weapons are located, they wobble so much that the weapons actually destroy your own ship at times (ok, maybee i dont know how to use them correctly, but firing a salvo ends with half of the shots stuck in your own ship). My final tip is to take a good look at what you want armored and what you dont, i see alot of armor in places that noone has any reason to even shoot at, and i see places (like teh rear of the engines) that lack any armor whatsoever. This is one thing i tend to spend alot of time on, layout design, and i make sure that armor is only where its actually needed, and not there just for the sake of it. Now if you can find a way to armor teh front and still allow yourself to use those forward missiles, then thats another story, but the way i see things, it makes alot more sense to focus on armoring the engines and possibly redesign the side missile mounts to both protect the weapons better, and also be less wobbly and exposed.
As for weapon improvements, ur 2 main weapons workj fairly well for what they are designed to do, accurate, fast, and can do some damage when they hit fast enough. Ur smaller missiles are bloody hard to actually hit something with, i know i may just not be used to them, but its basically impossible to control them once u light the engines, and there is no real way to aim them effectively as no cockpits, and the autoaim is derpy for some reason at least when shooting at my ships.
Finally, i would call its general protection if you count its weakspots similar to my older SK-CRV-I prototypes, if you know where to shoot it, it dies or is at a bare minimum crippled to a point it wont do much to you, and if you just fire at its center, it can take quite a beating from even higher end missiles.

Ok, will work on armoring the rear engines. Also, the side torpedoes are manually aimed via the sas probe core. You decouple them, point at target, and light the engines.

I will probably add a slight cowling to the front of the craft to stop that kind of damage, and complete the edges of the armor that was planned to wrap around the engines.

panzer1b · August 17, 2015

Drive, armor, and weapons are 3 points of a triangle. You can only push 2 of them to the outer edge at one time. Everyone varies on this scale.

I tend to go middle of the road in my ships, i prefer generalist designs over something that is very specialized in one and only one role. So id say i dont particularly push any one point too hard.

Also, while i know its best from a mass/range perspective, i dont understand how people can even stand to use ions on ships that are 100t or higher? My best and most likely last ever ion capital ship (perhaps U5 will change this) was ~80t, powered by over 120 bloody ion engines. That, and the ship was actually not fully legit as i edited probe cores to have more electirc storage space so i didnt need 10 tons of batteries to run the thing (i hate solar panels as they are always useless when im trying to burn to outer planets as its always on dark side burns, i use em for smaller ships as they can always burn at a much higher orbit and they dont burn too long, but capitals are almost alweays RTG spam or fuel cells after those came out).

What id do for a ion engine that weighs 2.5t, and has 20kn thrust in the stock game. This would actually open up the possibility of both ion fighters (a lil heavy but having 3 of them is the same as a nuke and ull save well over 5 tons in total fuel carried for the same dV needs). The current ions are just so weak and small, i really prefer not to have 30 of them on a fighter, and over 100 on a capital to get what id call bearable thrust levels.

Ok, will work on armoring the rear engines. Also, the side torpedoes are manually aimed via the sas probe core. You decouple them, point at target, and light the engines.
I will probably add a slight cowling to the front of the craft to stop that kind of damage, and complete the edges of the armor that was planned to wrap around the engines.

Also, one more tip, since yourt part count is already thru the roof, itd be nice to have some vernors onboard, since those things make moving/controlling a capital so much more pleasant. Your ship feels like a drek, something i really hate to fly as its so slow to respond to anything and takes a while to rotate around.

Anyways, here is my SK-CRV-I C fighting it one on one.

As you can see, its armor is quite resilient, but it has its share of weakspots that break the otherwise decent armor levels. And dump the armor around teh front, weapons are a weakness anyways, and there is no way to make it so you can fire something, and the enemy cant fire something inside your torpedo tubes (at least thats what my KDrone-Ms are designed to do, pure rcs powetred weapons, can surgically remove any particular thing provided it isnt hull plating.

Javascript is disabled. View full album

All in all, the old 0.90 SK-CRV-III styled hull still works, albeit not that well vs dedicated weapons. And all that at what, 150 parts, even potatoes can run it.

Ohh, and despite how it looks, and all the damage ive yet to actually split it without using Tripedoes, which are my own competitive 1.25m missiles. Most generic weapons like RT-5, Ibeams, And weaker will not even touch the hull itself, just that rear engine cliuster is a major weakness.

Edited August 17, 2015 by panzer1b

Alphasus · August 17, 2015

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I closed up the engines, and added light armor to the nose so that a miss does minimal damage.

panzer1b · August 17, 2015

http://imgur.com/a/KtpaB
I closed up the engines, and added light armor to the nose so that a miss does minimal damage.

Looks better, although im dreading to learn how high the part count is......

Myself i dont liek to fight anything abive 500 as the lag starts to create weird stuff, like when fighting some 1000 part ships, it creates some randomness that sometimes allows grabage ordinance to do immense damage, and other times vaporizes great high end weapons on contant and does 0 anything to target. At a lower part count this isnt a big deal as while luck always has a role, its not as bad, whereas at high part count phasing seems to be far less predictable and stuff outright goes all krakeny.

Alphasus · August 17, 2015

Looks better, although im dreading to learn how high the part count is......
Myself i dont liek to fight anything abive 500 as the lag starts to create weird stuff, like when fighting some 1000 part ships, it creates some randomness that sometimes allows grabage ordinance to do immense damage, and other times vaporizes great high end weapons on contant and does 0 anything to target. At a lower part count this isnt a big deal as while luck always has a role, its not as bad, whereas at high part count phasing seems to be far less predictable and stuff outright goes all krakeny.

600 parts....... 621 to be exact.

Spartwo · August 17, 2015

That's a lot.

Alphasus · August 17, 2015

It is also 108 tons, so it is quite heavy too. U5 will mean that 600 parts is reasonable.

Frozen_Heart · August 17, 2015

That's a lot.

That seems normal or even on the low side of the warships I see thrown around here these days. One of the reasons I don't battle. My PC can only handle 500 parts or so.

Alphasus · August 17, 2015

Wait until unity 5, then your dual core cpu can run 1000 parts in 2 ships.

Mr Tegu · August 17, 2015

Tegu makes me cri everytim

I always aim to please (myself :wink: )

@ panzer; if you can reliably take that Drek out with a single 2 ton projectile you impress the hell out of me, screenies please.

( in fact I'd love to see you do it to a Murderer, let alone a heavy Drek: https://www./?1l9a1amt5uby18i)

Edited August 17, 2015 by Mr Tegu

zekes · August 17, 2015

Tegu, the murderer isn't meant to be a combat ship is it? Because it's got about 300 m/s range, even a Drek will outrange that quite easily. Or did I get my stats wrong? Also, the poppers quickly disable it in one hit.

So there it is, armor is useless now. If we ever get any battles going it will be interesting to see what new tactics arise from this.

Edited August 17, 2015 by zekes

panzer1b · August 17, 2015

I always aim to please (myself )
@ panzer; if you can reliably take that Drek out with a single 2 ton projectile you impress the hell out of me, screenies please.
( in fact I'd love to see you do it to a Murderer, let alone a heavy Drek: https://www./?1l9a1amt5uby18i)

Ill show u later as well as weapon specs. I just checked its a hair over 2 tons, but its like 2.3 in current configuration (if you lowered its TWR and made it only useable from 2.5km away you can easily pull 2 tons). Its more or less a XL-3 wheel with a barebones propulsion system to get that XL-3 into a target at high velocity. Those wheels have such insane impact tolerance and weight that if you hit anything with just the wheel alone at 200-300m/s itll tear it apart.

Ofc that weapon has its issues, for one, its very awkward to actually place anywhere, and it only fits well radially, and the other issue, is that its difficult to get centered thrust on the wheel without symmetry as one wheel is already heavy and getting over 2 makes u need to switch to a 2.5m propulsion system (although 6 XL-3s + mainsail will kill anything and i mean ANYTHING 100% of the time, and it weighs more then half a warship....).

because of the firepower i myself would never ever use such a weapon against anyone even in a competitive game, what is the point when i have a 7 part/~2t weapon thats guaranteed to instantly vaporize the strongest drek or anything ive ever come across for that matter?

Anyways, on a completely unrelated note, im looking for a weapon system to attach to my new fighters im working on. Im looking for a 0.6m system, with as short a projectile as possible, with teh ability to stack anywhere from 3-6 of the rounds in one stack (the stack has to have decouplers on each side to allow it to be reloaded, but once used individual shots do not need to have docking ability). Im wondering if anyone has such a weapon that i could use, as im kinda busy with armor development as dont have time to make weapons? Also, it has to be only effective vs fighters and unarmored vessels, so it should be able top take down unarmored fuel tanks, wings, exposed pods, and other low impact parts, if itll kill a capital then even better, but it doesnt have to.

Alphasus · August 17, 2015

just use decouplers and stack them, you get good velocity but not control.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Alphasus

panzer1b · August 17, 2015

just use decouplers and stack them, you get good velocity but not control.

Except those wont damage anything above solar panels.......

The issue is they dont get enough velocity, terrible impact, and they are so light they just desintegrate on hit, and ive already tried decouler+sepatron combos, look cool, fly fast, dont do jack to anything let alone solar panels (which seem to break off from a sneeze anyways).

i was experimenting with engine+oscarB, but those are much longer then id like, might try some clipping though, but even that prolly wont work.

Spartwo · August 17, 2015

That seems normal or even on the low side of the warships I see thrown around here these days. One of the reasons I don't battle. My PC can only handle 500 parts or so.

Doesn't change that its a lot. What's causing it?

Alphasus · August 17, 2015

Except those wont damage anything above solar panels.......
The issue is they dont get enough velocity, terrible impact, and they are so light they just desintegrate on hit, and ive already tried decouler+sepatron combos, look cool, fly fast, dont do jack to anything let alone solar panels (which seem to break off from a sneeze anyways).
i was experimenting with engine+oscarB, but those are much longer then id like, might try some clipping though, but even that prolly wont work.

What about the thick structural beam with 3 separatrons that have rotation?

panzer1b · August 17, 2015

What about the thick structural beam with 3 separatrons that have rotation?

my standard anti-weak stuff missiles are short ibeam+2 seps, it works great, but im looking for something with very short missiles (even the 650 ibeam is too long for what i want) that is still lethal enough to harm crap, but a triple or quadruple shot stack is no longer then a XL girder.

I already have plenty of general use weapons, im just looking for something that can get multiple shots, and has a very small profile length wise.

Naval Battle Club

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