CNES budget

[Idobox]

Not sure if this is the right subforum, but I'll try.

While discussing the UKSA projects on another thread, I looked into the budget of several members of ESA, and discovered that CNES, the French space program, spends about 300M€ a year on "access to space" in addition to 700M€ to fund ESA. The thing is, all the launchers the CNES talks about are managed by ESA (Ariane, Vega and Soyouz).

So, what is all this money used for?

Does it correspond to the money spent by CNES on Ariane? It sounds weird given that ESA spends 600M€ on launchers without being a shareholder of Arianespace.

Is it the money spent on independent French launches (things like military applications)?

[sgt_flyer]

There's a breakdown of CNES budget on their site (in french) - though those figures are for 2011 - 2012.

http://www.cnes.fr/web/CNES-fr/7295-le-budget-du-cnes.php

For 2012 :

Incomes : state subsidies : 1466M€

External contracts : 445M€

Expenses :

ESA funding : 770M€

Multilateral program (1139M€):

Access to space (launchers, and i guess kourou operating costs) : 324M€

Space usage (724M€):

Mutualised resources : 107M€

Public : 42M€

Earth, environment and climatics : 120M€

Science and preparation for the future : 167M€

Security and Defense : 269M€

Central administrations : 53M€

VAT and salary taxes : 57M€

Working capital : 2M€

Regarding the 'access to space part' i guess it also covers the maintenance of the Kourou Space Center - as it's owned by CNES, and is under shared control of CNES, ESA and Arianespace.

I guess the site security expenses could be included in either 'access to space' or the 'Security and Defense' parts.

After all, they are using a lot of French military forces for the site protection (especially for the launches)

they have Paris Firefighters unit (military) Gendarmerie units (military) and Foreign Legion units for the site protection. In either of the parts, it's quite a big spending

Edited August 19, 2014 by sgt_flyer

[Streetwind]

Also keep in mind that, while the Ariane rockets are formally ESA vessels, Arianespace is a French company. Ariane rockets are French rockets. The engines bear French names and are developed in France. Guiana Space Centre is located in French Guiana, which is not named this by coincidence. And the whole spaceport in fact belongs to France, who is merely sharing it with ESA.

Although Germany's contribution to ESA is nominally higher (by less than a percentage point), France is the major space power in Europe. They're the ones developing and maintaining launch capability, and all the ESA member states are kind of relying on them to keep doing it.

[Idobox]

Arianespace is a European company, with CNES owning 30%, and other French organizations another 30%.

If we were spending 300M€ on Kourou and security, we would charge ESA for it, and it doesn't show on the budget.

http://www.cnes.fr/automne_modules_files/standard/public/p10096_1c5313a029e25e8b0301f7bdbb203c16acces_espace.pdf

I found this brochure in French describing the Access to space.

Apparently CNES is developing new propulsion technology through a multilateral program, the FLPP (future launcher program) of ESA, and the 100% French PIA.

The PIA (plan d'investissement avenir, investment plan for the future) is 250M€ from 2011 to 2015 (in total, not per year), and is to be used to work on the successor to Ariane 5. The FLPP does the same job, but the PIA is 100% French, to allow France to have more power in decision, and to keep/get a bigger share of Arianespace.

205M€ over 4 years equates to about 60M€ a year. I guess the rest is spent on FLPP and French satellites launches.

[Kryten]

'Access to space' might refer to purchase of non-ESA launchers; CNES uses Indian PSLV launchers for their SPOT earth-obs sats.

[Idobox]

'Access to space' might refer to purchase of non-ESA launchers; CNES uses Indian PSLV launchers for their SPOT earth-obs sats.

I didn't know CNES used other launchers. I guess having independent access to space doesn't mean you have to use only your own launchers.

[Sky_walker]

Also keep in mind that, while the Ariane rockets are formally ESA vessels, Arianespace is a French company

It's shared company between France and several other countries, most notably: Germany which own Ariancespace in roughly 20%. Though - yes, over 50% of shares are owned by various French companies and almost 35% is owned directly by French government (look: CNES).

http://www.arianespace.com/about-us-corporate-information/shareholders.asp

Although Germany's contribution to ESA is nominally higher (by less than a percentage point), France is the major space power in Europe. They're the ones developing and maintaining launch capability, and all the ESA member states are kind of relying on them to keep doing it.

It's much more complex than you try to picture it. Development of launch vehicles is lead by French, however all member countries have a say and decisive power - France cannot do anything on it's own, nor can Germany or Italy (Vega launcher in general is considered "Italian launcher" though again: several nations got a share in it and Italians couldn't do it on their own either).

'Access to space' might refer to purchase of non-ESA launchers; CNES uses Indian PSLV launchers for their SPOT earth-obs sats.

AFAIK "access to space" in roughly 1/3 are subsidiaries from CNES to Arianespace (they provide between 150 and 100 million euro per year (it varies)).

Edited August 22, 2014 by Sky_walker

[Idobox]

Well, France is doing things on its own, namely working on the propulsion concepts it wants to see used. There have also been a few half-assed projects to make small air-to-orbit launchers for military applications, but I can't get much info on it, so it has either been shelved, or is kept secret.

There is also a project with universities called Perseus which could lead to a tiny launcher.

But yeah, we don't rule Arianespace, we really need the money of the 40% other players, and many important parts are made by European companies. Still, we have more weight in decision making.

[Sky_walker]

Well, France is doing things on its own, namely working on the propulsion concepts it wants to see used.

What I mean is that no country in EU got it's own, fully independent launch capability. Not that France doesn't do anything at all Every country that got shares in Arianespace has it's own, various development programmes that contribute to the Europe's launch capability.

Still, we have more weight in decision making.

You pay for it, you got it.

Though IMHO the less national interests in and more scientific merit the better. (Look: Ariane 6 where most likely political needs will win over scientific merits and long-term benefits - though how this story ends we'll know in December)