Sandbox Mode should not have fewer features than Career Mode

[chaos_forge]

It started with 0.22 and the introduction of science. I excitedly went to one of the many science-equipped satellites I had in orbit in my (sandbox) saved game, and got a message along the lines of "This data is useless with the R&D facility closed". This a very disheartening message, and at least for me is a break of immersion. This problem has only increased with the addition of contracts, which are also unavailable to sanbox mode players.

Both contracts and science have a place in sandbox mode. First of all, both funds and science can serve as a sort of numerical measure of your success. Science especially serves (for us roleplaying types at least) as a measure of your contributions to kerbal knowledge, and can be fun to obtain for its own sake. Furthermore, I like having contracts (especially with FinePrint installed) to give me ideas on what I can do next. However, as a veteran player, I find the tech tree annoying and often times I want to run before I walk in a new save (such as going straight to Jool without having landed on the Mun first). However, in career mode I usually must grind science and funds before I can do the type of massive missions that I want to do right from the start.

So currently I have two options: play sandbox and be deprived of features, or play career and use save-editing/the debug menu to give myself funds and science when I need them (which feels like cheating). My proposed solution is this: give sandbox all the features of career mode, with one key difference: when you lanuch a ship that costs more funds than you have, you can launch it but your funds simply go negative. Likewise, you should be able to unlock tech tree node whenever you want by just having your science go negative. This lets sandbox players see if their space program would be successful in the long run, even if in the short run they may want to do some hideously expensive mission. Sandbox should have fewer limitations than career, not fewer features.

TL;DR: Sandbox should be just like career mode except your funds and science can go negative.

Thoughts/Ideas?

[Sky_walker]

Yes, it should have.

It's a sandbox after all. As in: for toying with parts.

If you want a missions or stuff - play a proper game mode.

[chaos_forge]

play a proper game mode.

I will repeat what is often said on these forums: This is a single-player game, there is no right or wrong way to play. Sandbox is as much a "proper" game mode as career.

[Dunbaratu]

But what do you use science FOR in sandbox mode, where the entire tech tree is already unlocked to begin with?

[chaos_forge]

You don't use it for anything, just like after you've completed the techtree in career. It does, however, serve as a sort of achievement tracker (especially the science archives section) and a measurement of how many places you've been.

Edited August 22, 2014 by chaos_forge

[Kasuha]

But what do you use science FOR in sandbox mode, where the entire tech tree is already unlocked to begin with?

You don't need to use them but you may like to see how much you have collected. Also science archives is a nice list of achievements.

Yes, I definitely agree that Sandbox should not have restrictions on science and contracts. With all tech and with unlimited money you would not be pressed to do any contracts, but if you want to do so for fun, why not? The same for science.

[SiliconPyro]

I can see contracts in particular being fun in sandbox, just so you have some actual goals other than what you make up for yourself.

[Sky_walker]

So... basically: Adding feature for a sake of doing it, even though it doesn't do anything what so ever in that game mode.

Still sounds like a stupid idea.

I will repeat what is often said on these forums: This is a single-player game, there is no right or wrong way to play. Sandbox is as much a "proper" game mode as career.

Sandbox is a proper game mode to play with parts.

Career is a proper game mode to play with contracts and science.

Science is a proper game mode if you want to play science with no financial constrains.

It's simple as that.

[comham]

Fine, proper game is perhaps too much of a loaded term. How about structured game?

[SiliconPyro]

So... basically: Adding feature for a sake of doing it, even though it doesn't do anything what so ever in that game mode.

Still sounds like a stupid idea.

We get it, you don't care for the idea. Some constructive criticism would be preferred over your calling someone's idea stupid.

[chaos_forge]

Sandbox is a proper game mode to play with parts.

Career is a proper game mode to play with contracts and science.

Science is a proper game mode if you want to play science with no financial constrains.

It's simple as that.

So if I want to play with contracts and science, yet not be restricted by budgets or a tech tree, what mode would be "proper" for me to play?

[Sky_walker]

So if I want to play with contracts and science, yet not be restricted by budgets or a tech tree, what mode would be "proper" for me to play?

I'd load my save from a career mode with whole research tree completed.

If you have a notepad - you can convert any save game into that "game mode" of yours.

[Kasuha]

So... basically: Adding feature for a sake of doing it, even though it doesn't do anything what so ever in that game mode.

Still sounds like a stupid idea.

The question is: will presence of that feature harm your personal game experience in any way?

There's substantial difference between 'I don't care if it is there' and 'I'll have less fun if it is there'. And IMO only the second case is valid as argument against the suggestion.

So if I want to play with contracts and science, yet not be restricted by budgets or a tech tree, what mode would be "proper" for me to play?

You can edit the persistence file, give yourself just the right amount of science to cover the tech tree, and a large sum of money. Then you can play 'sandbox in career'.

[SiliconPyro]

The question is: will presence of that feature harm your personal game experience in any way?

There's substantial difference between 'I don't care if it is there' and 'I'll have less fun if it is there'. And IMO only the second case is valid as argument against the suggestion.

You can edit the persistence file, give yourself just the right amount of science to cover the tech tree, and a large sum of money. Then you can play 'sandbox in career'.

Well put, sir and an excellent suggestion.

[TheCanadianVendingMachine]

Yes, it will harm my play. It will make me not want to do a career mode, but instead just do sandbox with science.

[Red Iron Crown]

Yes, it will harm my play. It will make me not want to do a career mode, but instead just do sandbox with science.

How is that a problem? If sandbox with science is more appealing to you, why not play it if that's an option?

[Joonatan1998]

Adding a feature that you don't use is harmful for you because it takes development time away from features you might use, Especially if it is something that takes a lot of time to implement. For this reason "don't like it, don't use it" is usually a bad defense for a suggestion.

Adding science to sandbox mode wouldn't take a lot of time, (I think) and it would be useful for many players (especially for some challenges) so I support, even though I probably wouldn't use this feature often.

[dryer_lint]

I don't see why we can't have funds and contracts in Sandbox, it would be fun to measure your progress and take contracts just when you're bored. But the most annoying thing is those placeholder science messages!

*finally gets a rocket to Eeloo and lands there*

*deploys the heavy module of scientific equipment*

WHOOPS THE R&D IS CLOSED, SO YOUR WHOLE MISSION MEANS NOTHING. TROLOLOLO

[TheCanadianVendingMachine]

How is that a problem? If sandbox with science is more appealing to you, why not play it if that's an option?

Because I want a challenge. I want to be confined. I also like reading the reports, a bit more. So I want to do career, but am changed by my mental state to play sandbox. Which I wish not to do

[Yakuzi]

I agree with the OP, getting the science achievements in sandbox would make a nice addition to that game-mode.

Because I want a challenge. I want to be confined. I also like reading the reports, a bit more. So I want to do career, but am changed by my mental state to play sandbox. Which I wish not to do

Sounds like a spacesuit with straightjacket function could provide the confinement you so desire

[chaos_forge]

But the most annoying thing is those placeholder science messages!

*finally gets a rocket to Eeloo and lands there*

*deploys the heavy module of scientific equipment*

WHOOPS THE R&D IS CLOSED, SO YOUR WHOLE MISSION MEANS NOTHING. TROLOLOLO

Agreed. Even if they do nothing else, I seriously hope the devs change the sandbox science messages.

[cwhiz]

I mean, if there is already a fairly easy way of manipulating a career save file to meet the desires of the OP and others then I don't think it should be something SQUAD worries about implementing in stock themselves.

[RuBisCO]

I'm all for this. In sandbox we could test how much science and how well a design or flight system performs per contract, but we can't because we can't see how much science we could get or access contracts.

[Dunbaratu]

You don't use it for anything, just like after you've completed the techtree in career. It does, however, serve as a sort of achievement tracker (especially the science archives section) and a measurement of how many places you've been.

If that's what you wanted it for then the actual complaint shouldn't be that you want science in sandbox mode, but that science shouldn't be where you access the history of achievements from, because there's non-science reasons to want to see that history.

[Dunbaratu]

So if I want to play with contracts and science, yet not be restricted by budgets or a tech tree, what mode would be "proper" for me to play?

"I'd like a bicycle, but I don't want it to have two wheels".

I cannot understand what contracts even *are* without money, or what the game's science even *is* without a tech tree. I can't even picture what you're asking for because it's self-contradictory.