[1.4.1] Kerbal Construction Time 1.4.0.69 (2018-03-24) - Unrapid Planned Assembly

[Gfurst]

Not right now. I've been thinking of ways to do that though, since it'd be convenient. Might make my own GUI because it'd be easier to have all the features I want but my GUI skills aren't all that great

Cheers but I have hope in you

[jfjohnny5]

Not sure if this is a bug or functioning as intended. It's been a while since I've played with this mod, and I can't recall how it used to work... It's a minor thing really, but KCT doesn't remember the Kerbals I assigned in the VAB when I'm launching the mission. The "Select Crew" window always defaults to Jeb, Bill, and Bob. I could have sworn it used to behave differently, but again, I don't really trust my memory.

[magico13]

Not sure if this is a bug or functioning as intended. It's been a while since I've played with this mod, and I can't recall how it used to work... It's a minor thing really, but KCT doesn't remember the Kerbals I assigned in the VAB when I'm launching the mission. The "Select Crew" window always defaults to Jeb, Bill, and Bob. I could have sworn it used to behave differently, but again, I don't really trust my memory.

The VAB/SPH crew select has never worked. Partly because any time I tried to get info from it, or to set info in it, it's been a giant pain. But more importantly, because there's a decent chance that whoever you assign when you start building a vessel might be on a different mission by the time you go to launch. KCT's crew selection finds the first crew carrying part and fills it by taking the people from the top of the crew list. If you turn on the random crew selection setting it will give you random Kerbals that you have hired instead (but you can still select them manually).

Basically, the crew selection in the editor doesn't do anything with KCT, except in the case of simulations (since that uses the same function that the launch button does in the vanilla game).

[jfjohnny5]

Ah got it. Must have been the simulation functionality that I was remembering.

[Gryphon]

KCT's crew selection finds the first crew carrying part and fills it by taking the people from the top of the crew list.

My favorite side effect of this happened when I was testing the Hitchhiker on the pad. I built a ship with just a probe core and the Hitchhiker, and of course KCT loaded it with Jeb, Bill, Bob, and Val. My first instinct was to clear them all out, but instead, I decided to let them stay in. Launchpad Party!

[vardicd]

Got a strange KCT error, just now, tried loading a quick save, and game broke. got an error message saying there was an error loading KCT Data, and to upload log file here. so, Here:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8gil5ubkmhyn17n/AADHX-RYrUak-U4G221XWUXAa?dl=0

[khearn]

I seem to have gotten to the point where I can build rockets faster than I can recondition the pad after launching them. This seems inevitable at some point in the game. The following is my analysis of the situation. Please let me know if I'm misunderstanding anything.

So, you actually have a few options. I'll list them from least likely to be what you're looking for, to most:

1) Adjust the rollout/recon. split to keep the total time constant but move more of it into rolling out the vessel rather than fixing the pad.

2) Lower the Max Reconditioning setting (under Time Settings in the KCT settings menu) to reduce the maximum amount of time that reconditioning can take.

3) Or, under the clearly labelled "Launchpad reconditioning" setting in the Time Settings, increase the mass listed there. By default it should be something like 86400 BP per 50 tons. Increase that to 100 tons to halve the reconditioning time. Set it to 25 to double it. Etc.

In-game ways of reducing reconditioning times:

1) Use a smaller rocket. Reconditioning is directly related to mass. The more massive the rocket, the longer the reconditioning time. Using the smallest rocket needed will keep the time short.

2) Upgrade your VAB rates. The rate at which reconditioning completes is all of the VAB rates added together. So a single fast rate of 2 BP/s means reconditioning will complete at 2 BP/s. Two rates of 1.5 BP/s means reconditioning will complete at 3 BP/s.

Hope that helps!

The in-game ways don't really work.

• Using smaller rockets doesn't solve the problem, because smaller rockets get built faster, counteracting the faster reconditioning.
  
• Upgrading VAB rates also means your rockets get built faster.
  

So either way, you end up with more launches per unit of time, but you still have an ever-growing stockpile of rockets waiting to launch. And when you add in the effect of recovered parts and using the same parts multiple times causing them to get built quicker (the "Build Effect" in the time settings), it gets even worse.

So I think the settings have to be tweaked in order to avoid an inevitable backlog occurring at some point.

Is the rollout/recon. split the Rollout % in the Time settings? I think tweaking this will help in the short term, but a few more VAB upgrades and I'll still be building faster than I can launch. If I understand it correctly, this will let me get to the point where if I start a rollout as soon as a launch is done, the rollout will finish just as the reconditioning is finished. It defaults to 25%, so I suspect setting it to 50% would be the balance point, and effectively make the reconditioning take 2/3rds the default time. Do I have that right?

If I'm doing the math right, the max reconditioning time is 16 Kerbal days (96 hours). Since I'm not getting up to anywhere near that and am starting to get a backlog, it looks like I'd have to lower this a lot to make a difference. But it might be the best solution in the short run.

This leaves reducing the reconditioning time/mass ratio. I guess I'll tweak it up a bit, but I don't think it's really a long term solution.

If reconditioning time was directly related to the actual time it takes to build a rocket, there should be a value that avoids the inevitable backlog. But the build effect actually makes the builds speed up faster than the VAB build rates increase, since repeatedly built parts get built faster. I'm not sure there is a good way to avoid a backlog with this going on, other than maxing out the reconditioning time.

I think the long term solution is your plan to allow players to build more launch pads. This allows the player to effectively buy a faster reconditioning rate as they get to the point where they need it.

[vardicd]

I seem to have gotten to the point where I can build rockets faster than I can recondition the pad after launching them. This seems inevitable at some point in the game. The following is my analysis of the situation. Please let me know if I'm misunderstanding anything.

The in-game ways don't really work.

• Using smaller rockets doesn't solve the problem, because smaller rockets get built faster, counteracting the faster reconditioning.
  
• Upgrading VAB rates also means your rockets get built faster.
  

So either way, you end up with more launches per unit of time, but you still have an ever-growing stockpile of rockets waiting to launch. And when you add in the effect of recovered parts and using the same parts multiple times causing them to get built quicker (the "Build Effect" in the time settings), it gets even worse.

So I think the settings have to be tweaked in order to avoid an inevitable backlog occurring at some point.

Is the rollout/recon. split the Rollout % in the Time settings? I think tweaking this will help in the short term, but a few more VAB upgrades and I'll still be building faster than I can launch. If I understand it correctly, this will let me get to the point where if I start a rollout as soon as a launch is done, the rollout will finish just as the reconditioning is finished. It defaults to 25%, so I suspect setting it to 50% would be the balance point, and effectively make the reconditioning take 2/3rds the default time. Do I have that right?

If I'm doing the math right, the max reconditioning time is 16 Kerbal days (96 hours). Since I'm not getting up to anywhere near that and am starting to get a backlog, it looks like I'd have to lower this a lot to make a difference. But it might be the best solution in the short run.

This leaves reducing the reconditioning time/mass ratio. I guess I'll tweak it up a bit, but I don't think it's really a long term solution.

If reconditioning time was directly related to the actual time it takes to build a rocket, there should be a value that avoids the inevitable backlog. But the build effect actually makes the builds speed up faster than the VAB build rates increase, since repeatedly built parts get built faster. I'm not sure there is a good way to avoid a backlog with this going on, other than maxing out the reconditioning time.

I think the long term solution is your plan to allow players to build more launch pads. This allows the player to effectively buy a faster reconditioning rate as they get to the point where they need it.

I tend to launch smaller rockets out of the Space Plane Hangar. Seems to help cut back on that back log.

[magico13]

Got a strange KCT error, just now, tried loading a quick save, and game broke. got an error message saying there was an error loading KCT Data, and to upload log file here. so, Here:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8gil5ubkmhyn17n/AADHX-RYrUak-U4G221XWUXAa?dl=0

Pretty much every mod you've got is throwing errors, but it looks like it started with Extraplanetary Launchpads. Was this after a launch using KCT (probably, it goes from SpaceCenter to Flight)? I might have to test out that configuration to see if the logged error in EL is happening every time, and if it's just a "visual" error or actually the cause of something bigger.

I seem to have gotten to the point where I can build rockets faster than I can recondition the pad after launching them. This seems inevitable at some point in the game. The following is my analysis of the situation. Please let me know if I'm misunderstanding anything.

Is the rollout/recon. split the Rollout % in the Time settings? I think tweaking this will help in the short term, but a few more VAB upgrades and I'll still be building faster than I can launch. If I understand it correctly, this will let me get to the point where if I start a rollout as soon as a launch is done, the rollout will finish just as the reconditioning is finished. It defaults to 25%, so I suspect setting it to 50% would be the balance point, and effectively make the reconditioning take 2/3rds the default time. Do I have that right?

If I'm doing the math right, the max reconditioning time is 16 Kerbal days (96 hours). Since I'm not getting up to anywhere near that and am starting to get a backlog, it looks like I'd have to lower this a lot to make a difference. But it might be the best solution in the short run.

This leaves reducing the reconditioning time/mass ratio. I guess I'll tweak it up a bit, but I don't think it's really a long term solution.

If reconditioning time was directly related to the actual time it takes to build a rocket, there should be a value that avoids the inevitable backlog. But the build effect actually makes the builds speed up faster than the VAB build rates increase, since repeatedly built parts get built faster. I'm not sure there is a good way to avoid a backlog with this going on, other than maxing out the reconditioning time.

I think the long term solution is your plan to allow players to build more launch pads. This allows the player to effectively buy a faster reconditioning rate as they get to the point where they need it.

Hmm. This does seem to be an issue, so thank you for taking the time to look into it. I don't often get to play KSP, so balancing things is always a bit of a challenge (and I frequently play with some settings disabled or tweaked anyway). I can see how the in-game ways of speeding things up can actually make the problem worse.

Rollout and reconditioning are both halves of the same total time. A single BP value is calculated for each vessel and rollout becomes x% of that while reconditioning becomes (100-x)%. 50% then would make them take equal amounts of time, but as each vessel will have a different mass it's not guaranteed that rolling out immediately after launch will line up perfectly, but they will be closer. You could reduce the total amount of time that way, yes.

The max reconditioning time is 96 hours at 1 BP/s, correct (16 Kerbin days, ONLY 4 Earth days, which isn't actually much when you think about it, but Kerbal time is weird). All of the VAB rates are added together to give the total rate, so two rates of 1 BP/s each will reduce that time to 8 Kerbin days.

Tweaking the BP to mass ratio, or even the reconditioning formula itself, might be the best solution at the moment. Separate launchpads will also help when I get around to that, since you'll be able to avoid reconditioning on one pad by just using another pad.

I'm personally OK with having to wait a little bit for the pad to finish, but it's possible you might be waiting for quite a bit longer than is reasonable. While I might get a backlog of vessels waiting to launch, it forces me to play around in the SPH to come up with alternative solutions. In a previous save I finally learned how to make an SSTO just to do LKO missions, saving the VAB for bigger missions, and I found myself using my SSTO more often than the VAB. The balance could still use tweaking though. At the very least, it's better now than when it was twice as much time per ton and there was no maximum (50 day reconditionings were not unheard of).

If you find some settings that feel more appropriate, send them my way and I'll consider using them for the default settings.

[vardicd]

Pretty much every mod you've got is throwing errors, but it looks like it started with Extraplanetary Launchpads. Was this after a launch using KCT (probably, it goes from SpaceCenter to Flight)? I might have to test out that configuration to see if the logged error in EL is happening every time, and if it's just a "visual" error or actually the cause of something bigger.

I was returning from Minmus. Had I think 16 days on the mission counter, got interrupted by RL on reentry, and blew up, tried reloading a quicksave of my ship as I was approaching Kerbin, about 3K out, error hit.

[Gfurst]

Got a strange KCT error, just now, tried loading a quick save, and game broke. got an error message saying there was an error loading KCT Data, and to upload log file here. so, Here:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8gil5ubkmhyn17n/AADHX-RYrUak-U4G221XWUXAa?dl=0

I had a similar issue when trying some mod I forgot. Anyway, the issue was that somehow something failed to load properly de-railing everything after it, KCT couldn't load its config files, but no other mods were working and parts too.

So I'd recommend looking somewhere else first, check the last mods you've added and see if something is not borked, try reinstalling them.

[Gryphon]

• Upgrading VAB rates also means your rockets get built faster.
  

Did you try adding and upgrading multiple additional build slots?

The most effective in-game way to increase your reconditioning rate is spending upgrades on 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc., slots for construction. Way back in 0.25, I had 4 slots running, and since upgrading those gets much cheaper (and has a larger effect on your total rate), it was an effective way for me to get my pad ready faster.

Yes, it did speed up my building, but while it's easy to keep one slot busy, it's much harder to keep 4 slots busy, though I did use it to build up my parts inventory from time to time.

[vardicd]

Magico13, A question, KCT's build lines for the VAB and SPH seem to be linked to the line in front of it, what I mean is you can spend an upgrade point right away to open a second build line in KCT, but you can't upgrade that line, until you've upgraded line 1, you can't open build line 3, until line 2 has been upgraded. Is there a way to disable this function? I just had to start a new game, and I was hoping to start a game with extremely long build times, with no build line over .15 BP/s but I want to run a lot of them to really make me think ahead and plan stuff out, I've found that with the default method it really becomes too easy to rapidly turn stuff out if I get into trouble. Here's a picture showing what I mean a little better.

[Drake1500]

I was hoping to start a game with extremely long build times, with no build line over .15 BP/s but I want to run a lot of them

The way the build lines work in the base mod is that each new build line will be 0.05 BP/s faster for each upgrade, which is why you can't upgrade the next build line. For instance:

Line 1: 0.05 BP/s per upgrade

Line 2: 0.10 BP/s per upgrade

Line 3: 0.15 BP/s per upgrade

Line 4: 0.20 BP/s per upgrade

However, you can't have Line 3 faster than Line 2, which can't be faster than Line 1. This means that each Line must be upgraded at least once in order to be able to upgrade the next, since until Line 2 is at 0.20 BP/s, Line 3 would be faster than it with even a single upgrade.

As for how to get multiple build lines at 0.15 BP/s, that would probably take some code-editing, to make each upgrade cost the same for each line. But I don't look at the code, and wouldn't know where to look anyway, so I'm not sure about that. It'll have to be Magico to explain that.

--Update--

Actually, you CAN change how much each upgrade point adds. In the Kerbal Construction Time folder, there's a file called KCT_Formulas.cfg. If you change the BuildRateFormula to:

(+1)*0.05*[N]

That should make each upgrade point add 0.05 to the build rate for each line. Can someone confirm this for me, though, that formula does look a little complicated, and I'm not sure of the complete ramifications of changing it.

If I'm correct in my guesses, [N] is equal to the current number of upgrade points in the build rate, is equal to the build line number (0 for the first line, 1 for the second, 2 for the third, and so on), and [L] is equal to the level of the VAB/SPH (to limit the number of build rates based on the level of the VAB/SPH)

And I just realized that magico posted a link to the descriptions of all these formulas, in his post just above yours. The part about this formula says:

BuildRateFormula = "((+1)*0.05*[N] + max(0.1-, 0))*sign(2*[L]-+1)";

Purpose: Defines build rates and how they change with upgrades

Variables: N=num upgrades, I=rate index (0 based), L=VAB/SPH upgrade level, R=R&D level

Note: This uses some tricks to achieve various goals. First, the max() section sets the first build rate to start at 0.1 and all the others to start at 0. Second, the *sign() section limits the number of rates you can have based on the VAB upgrade level (2 rates at level 0, 4 rates at 1, 6 at 2). It works because a negative rate is considered "disabled"

Edited May 26, 2015 by Drake1500

[John FX]

Magico13, A question, KCT's build lines for the VAB and SPH seem to be linked to the line in front of it, what I mean is you can spend an upgrade point right away to open a second build line in KCT, but you can't upgrade that line, until you've upgraded line 1, you can't open build line 3, until line 2 has been upgraded. Is there a way to disable this function? I just had to start a new game, and I was hoping to start a game with extremely long build times, with no build line over .15 BP/s but I want to run a lot of them to really make me think ahead and plan stuff out, I've found that with the default method it really becomes too easy to rapidly turn stuff out if I get into trouble. Here's a picture showing what I mean a little better.

http://i.imgur.com/IjV8yAY.jpg

I would support this being an option. More flexibility in setting up construction time would allow different playing styles, for example having four construction hangers and each build point puts them all up by the same amount.

[vardicd]

The way the build lines work in the base mod is that each new build line will be 0.05 BP/s faster for each upgrade, which is why you can't upgrade the next build line. For instance:

Line 1: 0.05 BP/s per upgrade

Line 2: 0.10 BP/s per upgrade

Line 3: 0.15 BP/s per upgrade

Line 4: 0.20 BP/s per upgrade

However, you can't have Line 3 faster than Line 2, which can't be faster than Line 1. This means that each Line must be upgraded at least once in order to be able to upgrade the next, since until Line 2 is at 0.20 BP/s, Line 3 would be faster than it with even a single upgrade.

As for how to get multiple build lines at 0.15 BP/s, that would probably take some code-editing, to make each upgrade cost the same for each line. But I don't look at the code, and wouldn't know where to look anyway, so I'm not sure about that. It'll have to be Magico to explain that.

--Update--

Actually, you CAN change how much each upgrade point adds. In the Kerbal Construction Time folder, there's a file called KCT_Formulas.cfg. If you change the BuildRateFormula to:

(+1)*0.05*[N]

That should make each upgrade point add 0.05 to the build rate for each line. Can someone confirm this for me, though, that formula does look a little complicated, and I'm not sure of the complete ramifications of changing it.

If I'm correct in my guesses, [N] is equal to the current number of upgrade points in the build rate, is equal to the build line number (0 for the first line, 1 for the second, 2 for the third, and so on), and [L] is equal to the level of the VAB/SPH (to limit the number of build rates based on the level of the VAB/SPH)

And I just realized that magico posted a link to the descriptions of all these formulas, in his post just above yours. The part about this formula says:

BuildRateFormula = "((+1)*0.05*[N] + max(0.1-, 0))*sign(2*[L]-+1)";

Purpose: Defines build rates and how they change with upgrades

Variables: N=num upgrades, I=rate index (0 based), L=VAB/SPH upgrade level, R=R&D level

Note: This uses some tricks to achieve various goals. First, the max() section sets the first build rate to start at 0.1 and all the others to start at 0. Second, the *sign() section limits the number of rates you can have based on the VAB upgrade level (2 rates at level 0, 4 rates at 1, 6 at 2). It works because a negative rate is considered "disabled"

Yeah read that, understood (.)<-- that much of it Sadly I'd need step by step instructions. change line a to .... add x to line b... and so on.

I would support this being an option. More flexibility in setting up construction time would allow different playing styles, for example having four construction hangers and each build point puts them all up by the same amount.

exactly. More play styles for the win As long as its not too much trouble. Magico's given us a great mod, and I love it, I don't want him to put major effort into a feature few would use.

[Drake1500]

And when you add in the effect of recovered parts and using the same parts multiple times causing them to get built quicker (the "Build Effect" in the time settings), it gets even worse.

Now that I'm seeing the formulas used for these things, I'm wondering if the Effective Part Formula should be re-tooled. By the looks of it, after the 3rd or 4th build of a small part, and after the 9th or 10th build of a big part, each time you build a part it reduces the build time negligibly. For instasnce, the second time you use any part it only takes 1/2 as long to build. This doesn't quite sound right to me: sure, some practise is better than no practise, but why 1/2 after the 1st build, and 1/4 after the 2nd?

I feel as though a better formula would use a quadratic effect on the number of parts built so far, like this:

[C]/( + (*((+1)^(2/3))))

Assuming there's no inventory, that would mean that each time you build the part, its BPs are (roughly): 100%, 63%, 48%, 40%, 34%, 30%, 27%, 25%, 23%, 21.5%, 20%, 19%, etc.

This would mean that using the same piece more than a few times would still be reducing its BPs noticeably. This would also help alleviate the issue with build times taking less time than reconditioning (albeit only somewhat - after 30 builds with the same part, my formula would take ~10.13% as long as originally, whereas the default formula is ~3.23%)

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah read that, understood (.)<-- that much of it Sadly I'd need step by step instructions. change line a to .... add x to line b... and so on.

OK, in that case, step 1: download this new .cfg: https://www.dropbox.com/s/iui9olsjk3gb9n9/KCT_Formulas.cfg?dl=0

Step 2: Drop into the "Kerbal Construction Time" folder inside the "GameData" folder where you installed KCT to begin with. It should overwrite the original.

If you update, you'll either need to replace the new .cfg, or go to the "Kerbal Construction Time" folder, and inside the "KCT_Formulas.cfg" (open it with Notepad, or Notepad++), find this line:

BuildRateFormula = ((+1)*0.05*[N] + max(0.1-, 0))*sign(2*[L]-+1)

And replace it with this line:

BuildRateFormula = 0.05*[N] + max(0.1-, 0)

==Don't use this formula, it will cause KCT to crash. Use the formula given below==

(It's currently the last one in the document, but that could change, as magico has said that he will be adding more formulas to this .cfg)

This will change all your build lines to give you 0.05 BP/s per upgrade, and allow you to upgrade them all right away, rather than the default way of doing it.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Drake1500
Don't want people to use a formula that will crash their game

[vardicd]

OK, in that case, step 1: download this new .cfg: https://www.dropbox.com/s/iui9olsjk3gb9n9/KCT_Formulas.cfg?dl=0

Step 2: Drop into the "Kerbal Construction Time" folder inside the "GameData" folder where you installed KCT to begin with. It should overwrite the original.

If you update, you'll either need to replace the new .cfg, or go to the "Kerbal Construction Time" folder, and inside the "KCT_Formulas.cfg" (open it with Notepad, or Notepad++), find this line:

BuildRateFormula = ((+1)*0.05*[N] + max(0.1-, 0))*sign(2*[L]-+1)

And replace it with this line:

BuildRateFormula = 0.05*[N] + max(0.1-, 0)

(It's currently the last one in the document, but that could change, as magico has said that he will be adding more formulas to this .cfg)

This will change all your build lines to give you 0.05 BP/s per upgrade, and allow you to upgrade them all right away, rather than the default way of doing it.

Awesome, Thanks!!

Edit: Doesn't seem to work. game crashes instantly when I try to load or start a new game. Thanks for the effort though.

Edited May 26, 2015 by vardicd

[Drake1500]

Awesome, Thanks!!

Edit: Doesn't seem to work. game crashes instantly when I try to load or start a new game. Thanks for the effort though.

Well, this is what I get for posting a "solution" without testing it myself. Sorry.

However, I've looked and it seems that the first formula I gave you caused KCT to go through a loop, creating build lines forever, until you eventually shut the game down forcefully (might want to mention that in your documentation, magico13. Would help people like me who want to modify the formulas )

This will solve that:

BuildRateFormula = (0.05*[N] + max(0.1-, 0))*sign(20*([L]+1)-)

This won't give you an unlimited number of build lines (as I hoped to give you before), but it will give you 20 build lines per upgrade level of the VAB/SPH. I have tested this on my own game, and it works, although you'll need to start a new game (loading an old save will not load the build rates properly).

Edited May 26, 2015 by Drake1500

[vardicd]

Well, this is what I get for posting a "solution" without testing it myself. Sorry.

However, I've looked and it seems that the first formula I gave you caused KCT to go through a loop, creating build lines forever, until you eventually shut the game down forcefully (might want to mention that in your documentation, magico13. Would help people like me who want to modify the formulas )

This will solve that:

BuildRateFormula = (0.05*[N] + max(0.1-, 0))*sign(20*([L]+1)-)

This won't give you an unlimited number of build lines (as I hoped to give you before), but it will give you 20 build lines per upgrade level of the VAB/SPH. I have tested this on my own game, and it works, although you'll need to start a new game (loading an old save will not load the build rates properly).

Your new formula works like a charm. Thanks ever so much. Have some rep.

[magico13]

exactly. More play styles for the win As long as its not too much trouble. Magico's given us a great mod, and I love it, I don't want him to put major effort into a feature few would use.

As you are all figuring out now, I've given you the tools to modify KCT to adapt to just about any playstyle. They're not the simplest tools (but I'm always willing to help you figure them out), but trying to shove a bunch of functionality into a single line in a config file results in some difficulties

Now that I'm seeing the formulas used for these things, I'm wondering if the Effective Part Formula should be re-tooled. By the looks of it, after the 3rd or 4th build of a small part, and after the 9th or 10th build of a big part, each time you build a part it reduces the build time negligibly. For instasnce, the second time you use any part it only takes 1/2 as long to build. This doesn't quite sound right to me: sure, some practise is better than no practise, but why 1/2 after the 1st build, and 1/4 after the 2nd?

I feel as though a better formula would use a quadratic effect on the number of parts built so far, like this:

[C]/( + (*((+1)^(2/3))))

Assuming there's no inventory, that would mean that each time you build the part, its BPs are (roughly): 100%, 63%, 48%, 40%, 34%, 30%, 27%, 25%, 23%, 21.5%, 20%, 19%, etc.

This would mean that using the same piece more than a few times would still be reducing its BPs noticeably. This would also help alleviate the issue with build times taking less time than reconditioning (albeit only somewhat - after 30 builds with the same part, my formula would take ~10.13% as long as originally, whereas the default formula is ~3.23%)

You seem to be either forgetting or just don't realize that the effective cost of each part gets added together and the whole thing then gets thrown into the Build Rate Formula. The Build Rate Formula (by default) takes the square root of the total effective cost (which, mind you, does not actually need to be cost based), so it kind of works out that 4 builds of the same part results in a build time of 1/2, 16 results in 1/4, etc. Except the weighting gets weird when everything isn't in the same situation.

A few examples:

1) If you have a two part ship, each part costs 100 funds, and both are brand new: BP = sqrt(100+100)=14.14

2) Same ship, one of the parts has been used 4 times (including this time): BP = sqrt(100+25)=11.18

3) Same ship, both parts used 4 times: BP = sqrt(25+25)=7.07

4) Same ship, one part is in the inventory and the other is new: BP = sqrt(100+1) = 10.05

5) Both parts in inventory: BP = sqrt(2) = 1.41

I'm ignoring constants (because in science constants don't matter for qualitative trends ), but I think you get the point. You are free to play around with those formula and find something you prefer. If you get a whole set of changes that make for an interesting play style, I'll include it as a preset when I finish writing that code.

E: I see your point about diminishing returns. It is set up so that you get larger changes at first but quickly level off, because in testing that felt better than a more gradual transition. Those formulas are also pretty much unchanged from the first versions, which were conceived in February of 2014, so over a year ago, back when KCT was much smaller. I hesitate to change them, because they've become familiar to people over time, but that's what the presets will be for, trying new things and playing around with the settings more.

Well, this is what I get for posting a "solution" without testing it myself. Sorry.

However, I've looked and it seems that the first formula I gave you caused KCT to go through a loop, creating build lines forever, until you eventually shut the game down forcefully (might want to mention that in your documentation, magico13. Would help people like me who want to modify the formulas )

This will solve that:

BuildRateFormula = (0.05*[N] + max(0.1-, 0))*sign(20*([L]+1)-)

This won't give you an unlimited number of build lines (as I hoped to give you before), but it will give you 20 build lines per upgrade level of the VAB/SPH. I have tested this on my own game, and it works, although you'll need to start a new game (loading an old save will not load the build rates properly).

Looks like I need to go through and make sure it stops after the first rate of 0, not just for negatives. In general, assume 0 is still valid but negatives disable, in any of the formulas. It should be working in existing games (the rates are recalculated on every scene change). If it isn't, that's a bug.

Your new formula works like a charm. Thanks ever so much. Have some rep.

Glad you two could work out a solution. If you wanted to not have to spend upgrade points at all, you can actually remove the [N] variable entirely and just set the rates to a fixed value (keep the *sign() part so as to not create an infinite loop). I've got a config that doesn't use any build points at all and relies entirely on the stock upgrade system.

And don't worry about losing your changes when you update. I don't package config files precisely for that reason, they'll never be overwritten. When the preset system gets put into place, they might need to be reworked to work with that system, but I'll probably write up a converter that will do it automatically on load.

Side note: last time I wrote a converter to go from an old format to a new one, 0.90 was released before the update came out and no one needed it because they made new games. What a waste of time!

Edited May 26, 2015 by magico13

[Drake1500]

You seem to be either forgetting or just don't realize that the effective cost of each part gets added together and the whole thing then gets thrown into the Build Rate Formula. The Build Rate Formula (by default) takes the square root of the total effective cost (which, mind you, does not actually need to be cost based), so it kind of works out that 4 builds of the same part results in a build time of 1/2, 16 results in 1/4, etc.

A bit of both. I looked at the other formula and thought "Oh, that's applied to everything, it's not really relevant to what I want to know." And didn't think about the fact that if everything gets square-rooted, that means the actual BPs of the parts is changed as well.

In general, assume 0 is still valid but negatives disable, in any of the formulas.

Fair enough. Until now, there's been no need to think that it would need to be different.

It should be working in existing games (the rates are recalculated on every scene change). If it isn't, that's a bug.

Hmm. In that case, I'll have to check it out again. I remember loading up a previous save and seeing the build rates in the VAB and SPH as blank (couldn't see them, couldn't put any points into them, as though they were all disabled or no longer there). The R&D tab still looked normal, though, so I figured that it was due to the build rate formula changing. I'll see if I can get it to happen again and give you a screenshot of what I mean.

Edit: After some trying, I can't get it to do it again. Either my memory is terrible... or, I dunno, something.

And don't worry about losing your changes when you update. I don't package config files precisely for that reason, they'll never be overwritten.

Ah, wonderful! I just assume that any changes I make will be lost upon update until proven otherwise, and so I write down whatever I do. But this is much better.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Drake1500

[icedown]

Ended up with an interesting situation. I tested this rocket in simulation many(way to many) times and it worked fine. But when I finally got to launch it for real, when I got to the launch scene this is what I found. I have had problems with another rocket of comparable size. It would simply rip itself apart on the pad.

It's just kinda floating there, swaying a little but not moving. I had a considerable investment in it so I didn't try to launch. To many parts that could act like a guided missile pointed at my space center.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79622787/output_log.txt

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79622787/KSP.log

[UnanimousCoward]

I am not sure if this is a bug or something, but when i use stage recovery and this mod to recover parts from mods they do not go in my inventory. Stock parts do, but only stock.

For anyone with this problem, I posted an MM config here that seems to resolve it :

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/51037-1-02-KW-Rocketry-v2-7-Available-1-02-Compatibility%21-16-05-2015?p=1973363&viewfull=1#post1973363

Edit--

Should probably clarify, the issue was with KW Rocketry parts and the config only applies to them.

Edited May 27, 2015 by UnanimousCoward

[Bizz Keryear]

I am pretty happy with KCT no, but is there any form of official or inofficial wiki or documentation of any kind?

I am currently having a hard time understanding how the little upgrade points are made and hope to read somewhere to red about the flowers and the bees.