Science Gains Balance Idea

[Monthar]

What prompted me to make this balance suggestion was a combo of watching videos and making 2550 science myself with just a single launch to Minmus from just crew reports, EVA reports and soil samples. Such as Scott Manley completing the tech tree with over 1600 science to spare using just two launches and only going to Minmus and Mun and I think Duna.

If you don't want to read the entire post, I included a summary at the bottom.

We currently have 7 planets we can visit, plus their moons and the sun. It takes 10,098 science to unlock the entire stock tech tree. That comes out to approximately 1442.6 science per planetary system.

My suggestion is to give a max of approximately 3000 science per planetary system (planet plus its moons) divided equally across all the biomes for that planet and its moons. That means we would only have to visit half the biomes in the solar system to max out the tech tree, provided all the science is returned, instead of transmitted, or a science lab is on the mission. Add another 1000 from the sun, divided between high and low orbits. If we visit every biome with every experiment, including the sun we'd earn more than double the science necessary to unlock the entire stock tech tree.

Set the transmitted value for all data that is purely data, ie. doesn't require a sample, to 75% of the recovery value. Those that requires samples (soil sample, goo canister, materials bay) transmit at half value. Anything processed by the science lab negates the transmit penalty, ie. data collected and process will transmit for the same value as recovery. This part is more about making the science lab worth using instead of just taking a bunch of materials bays and goo canisters and bringing their data back.

Along with this, to keep things simple, only give science for the first time you do an experiment, crew report, eva report for each biome. To further simplify thing, make all experiments and reports have the same value if performed in the same biome. So, a crew report, eva report, soil sample, goo observation, etc performed on the launchpad would all give the same amount of science.

Between Kerbin, Mun and Minumus there are approximately 73 locations between 33 biomes, 33 flying over each biome, flying in upper atmosphere on Kerbin and low and high orbits of all three bodies, thus max science from each location would be approximately 41 if every experiment and report were preformed in each location. Landed we have 9 experiments/reports (crew report, EVA report, temperature, gravity, atmosphere, seismic, soil sample, goo, materials bay) which makes them all worth 4.555 science each. While flying in atmosphere we lose seismic and soil sample dropping the total experiments/reports down to 7 making them worth 5.857 science each. In space we also lose the atmosphere reading, dropping the total experiments/reports to 6 making them worth 6.833 each. Therefore to simplify things if every experiment/report is set to a flat 5 science we would get 45 per biome when landed, 35 while flying over the biome, 35 in the upper atmosphere of Kerbin and 30 in low and high orbits over Kerbin, Mun and Minmus. Thus we'd have a total of 33(45+35) + 35 +6(30) = 2640+35+180 = 2855 from all locations on Kerbin, Mun and Minmus. If the upper atmosphere is also divided up by the biomes you're flying over for all reports and experiments that can be done there the total would be 33(45+35)+9(35)+6(30) = 2640+315+180 = 3135. Plus the extra little bit we can get from the landed on the runway, launchpad and KSC grounds. Plus whatever we earn from contracts on these three bodies.

Then there are the contracts that add even more science. These should be balanced to only give as much science per contract as you could gain in the biome the contract wants you to test in. So, if a contract says to test engine X landed at Kerbin it should only give as much science as one experiment performed on the launchpad/runway. Based on the example above, all contracts would give no more than 5 science.

All the extra science can be used by modders to add their new parts to their own techs in the tech tree. This would also help cut down on the clutter that some mods have where they put a lot of parts into a current tech. If modders feel they need more science than this, they can add additional science experiments, or more contracts to test the parts their mod adds.

I'm sure by the time the game goes gold we'll have multiple biomes on all the planets and moons and possible even science from landing on asteroids and comets (if comets are added as well).

Summary

Make all experiments and reports worth 5 science if recovered. Pure data reports/experiments worth 3.75 if transmitted. Sample experiments (soil, goo, materials bay) worth 2.5 if transmitted. Science Lab processing allows transmission of everything worth 5 points. Contracts give a max of 5 science. No more diminishing returns from repeating an experiment/report in the same location.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Monthar
Corrected a math problem

[Stratzenblitz75]

IMO, what your suggesting does not balance the science system very well. Spreading out all the science points equally over all the biomes in the Kerbol System does not make the science system more fun or engaging, it just makes it more grindy and even more of a click-fest since you have to perform every experiment in multiple biomes in multiple situations to get a sizable amount of science (that's a lot of clicking!). Also keep in mind that not all of the science experiments are unlocked from the start so this would make the process even more tedious early-game. The science in this game is already grindy enough: Allmhuran ranted about this

and I completely agree. Clicking a bunch of buttons to get ez-science is not fun. In addition, if all experiments/reports are worth the same value, then whats the incentive to travel to hard-to-reach places like Eeloo or Moho when you could just grind the Mun/Minmus/Duna for the same science return? This system encourages linear game play: Why bother spending a lot of funds on a lengthy Eeloo mission when you could just go to Duna for cheaper/quicker and get the same amount of science?

I'm not trying to put you down or anything, in fact, its great that people are pointing out the flaws in KSP's broken science system and giving their ideas on how to fix it. I just don't think your way is the right way to do it.

I believe that the devs need to add more substance to science and make it so you have to do more than oh say; send an experiment over, click it once, and BAM there's your science. Science should be more like science in real life: you should have to send missions to scan/explore a planet, make discoveries (like finding water on Duna or finding Oxygen on Laythe or detecting cryovolcanism on Vall) and then send follow up missions to study these discoveries in more detail. I elaborate more on this here.

[Monthar]

You wouldn't be able to just grind the Mun and Minmus, because you only get the science once per experiment/report in each location. So, you'd still have to send missions to the other planets and their moons. With earning approximately 3000 science per planetary system, You'd only have to hit half the biomes, or all the biomes on half the planetary systems to get all the science you need to completely unlock the entire tech tree. Therefore, it would encourage missions to more places. With the ability to bind the experiments and reports to an action group you can have 1 button to do all of them in each location, thus less clicking. Sure if you take multiple materials bays and goo canisters that were installed with symmetry you'd have to not put those on the action group since that would fire off all of them at once. But then with changing the science lab to give full recovery value with a transmission of anything it processes, you would only need 1 of each of them.

They could always keep multipliers in for the other planetary systems. So Kerbin's planetary system could be at the 3000ish mark, with Duna's and Eve's at 3500ish, Moho's and Dres' at 4000ish, Jool's and Eeloo's at 4500ish. But then, you could max out with just Kerbin, Eve and Duna systems, so no reason to ever go to Kerbol, Moho, Dres, Jool or Eeloo unless using a mod that needs more science.

As it is now, there is no reason to ever go beyond Minmus, nor to visit any of the biomes on Kerbin.

I could try to figure out how to make a mod that does this to test it out, unless someone else wants to.

[JimmyAgent007]

There are many players who never go past minimus or the mun. Personally i seldom go farther and when i do its just to Duna with a rover. Its not that I cant do other places, just that happens to be my play style. I keep starting new games with each patch. So a cap at 3000 per system would really hurt people who stay in a local comfort zone. Science needs to accommodate all play styles. Sure it needs to get fixed up, but not quite like that.

[Stratzenblitz75]

You wouldn't be able to just grind the Mun and Minmus, because you only get the science once per experiment/report in each location. So, you'd still have to send missions to the other planets and their moons. With earning approximately 3000 science per planetary system, You'd only have to hit half the biomes, or all the biomes on half the planetary systems to get all the science you need to completely unlock the entire tech tree. Therefore, it would encourage missions to more places.

I don't think you understood what I meant by "grinding". When I say "grinding" I mean "visiting all/most of the barely indistinguishable biomes defined by arbitrary borders on planet/moon and doing the same experiments in each one". In a science grinding set up (Mobile lab + lander with science instruments) there is NOTHING to make each landing different since you're doing the same thing every time. Honestly, whats the difference between the Mun's far-side crater and the Mun's near-side crater? Very little, other than the fact you can get a different set of science points. There's nothing interesting or unique to learn or do in these two "different" biomes. This applies to other planets as well. What's the difference between Ike and Vall in terms of science? What makes Vall an interesting or unique place to do science? As it stands, nothing, both of these supposedly different moons are the same to the science system; you can use the same lander, the same instruments, the same experiments, the same mobile lab to get ALL of the moon's scientific value.

Sure, your system encourages missions to more places but what's the point if all of these places give you the same results? I could just take my generic "science grinder" set up everywhere and get all the science by repeating the same landing over and over again for every biome until I max out the tech tree. That's my problem with your system. It doesn't solve the problem, it just makes grinding the tech tree take longer than it already does without adding any variety or depth to the science system.

With the ability to bind the experiments and reports to an action group you can have 1 button to do all of them in each location, thus less clicking. Sure if you take multiple materials bays and goo canisters that were installed with symmetry you'd have to not put those on the action group since that would fire off all of them at once. But then with changing the science lab to give full recovery value with a transmission of anything it processes, you would only need 1 of each of them.

Whether you use an action group or click on the experiments individually is irrelevant; its still extremely boring and grindy when you have to do it for every single biome.

They could always keep multipliers in for the other planetary systems. So Kerbin's planetary system could be at the 3000ish mark, with Duna's and Eve's at 3500ish, Moho's and Dres' at 4000ish, Jool's and Eeloo's at 4500ish. But then, you could max out with just Kerbin, Eve and Duna systems, so no reason to ever go to Kerbol, Moho, Dres, Jool or Eeloo unless using a mod that needs more science.

Yea, you sure could just max out the Kerbin, Eve, Duna systems if you feel up to the task of grinding all the science from every single biome and situation on these planets and their moons. For most people though, this is probably not their idea of "fun". The reason the science system somewhat works in its current state is that you don't have to do as much grinding to max out the tech tree. You don't NEED a generic mobile lab + science lander setup to get a lot of science. Your system pretty much requires this "generic mobile lab + science lander setup" in order to get any sizable amount of science.

[Kasuha]

The whole setup is provisional at the moment. We don't have all biomes yet, maybe we even don't have all planets in the system yet. Also the part set is not complete and so isn't the tech tree. Nobody has a clue how big the tree will be and how much science points will it require to uncover. The game is set up to be playable - rather easy than hard - until all the main prerequisities are in place. I am certain that once these prerequisities are completed, we will get one or more balancing releases aimed to make the game more fun ... which I believe in this case also means maybe slightly less challenging at the beginning, but significantly more challenging at the end.

[MassDivide]

We need another solar system to visit. even if its just a small star with a tiny mudball called Num (opposite of mun) ;p

I like the idea of a 3k cap per planet, but I also wish we also had better fuel management.

[Monthar]

I did some more thinking on the idea. Instead of just 1 shot like my original proposal, we keep the reduction for repeated experiments and include repeated reports for each location, but on a linear scale. First time it's 5 science, 2nd 4, 3rd 3, 4th 2, 5th 1. That would bring the science per planetary system to to approx 9000 if you went on a grind fest.

Next instead of my original proposal of only 5 science per contract max on all contracts, make that apply only to the part testing contracts. Then change those explore Mun, Minmus, etc. contracts to provide large amounts of science depending on where the contract is sending you. Think of those contracts as science missions. Include the first 4 contracts in this group of science mission contracts.

Examples

Launch a ship - 10 science

Reach 5000 meters - 20 science

Reach space - 40 science

Achieve orbit - 80 science.

This gives 150 science just for completing the first 4 contracts.

Then perhaps the Mun mission could be 300 science, Minmus 450 science. Duna 1000, Eve 1500, etc. The mission to each of the moons around the other planets could give the same science as the planet for completing the mission. That's just the basic explore missions.

Now add more science mission contracts asking you to explore specific locations on each of the planets and moons, including Kerbin. If possible these mission contracts could also spawn some anomaly at the location it wants you to explore that you have to investigate as part of the mission. It could be anything from a crashed satellite to a monolith, to an out of fuel lander with a Kerbal that needs rescuing (another Kerbin nation's ship and crew), to some strange plant or other lifeform. These types of missions would give more science on completion than the basic explore the planet/moon mission did for that planet/moon.