Last Friday Squadcast - Accidental Information about 0.26?

[Alshain]

So I was re-watching Squadcast from Friday because I heard something that caught my attention but wanted to confirm it. At 20:20 the conversation turned to 0.26 and the biomes. We know biomes are coming, but we don't know if Squad is making those or taking them from an outside source... however the conversation go interesting and seemed to imply a little more:

Yargnit: “Should I add the mod that adds biomes to the rest of the planets….â€Â

Maxmaps: “I would add the other biomes considering those are coming anyway.â€Â

Now maybe I'm reading too much into this, but it seems to me he just confirmed the Biomes they are adding are the exact biomes from "the mod", presumably Custom Biomes. What do you think, is this a confirmation Custom Biomes is being integrated directly?

[blizzy78]

Now maybe I'm reading too much into this

I think you are.

[FleetAdmiralJ]

Maxmaps had already tweeted out that biomes on every planet will (probably) be in 0.26:

https://twitter.com/Maxmaps/status/518040350716600321

Edit: Oh, derp, it would have helped if I can comprehended the whole thing. I wouldn't read into it that that specific mod will be integrated. I think was just that, as biomes are coming in 0.26 anyway (probably), that he just as well play with expanded biomes now.

[lordlundar]

Now maybe I'm reading too much into this, but it seems to me he just confirmed the Biomes they are adding are the exact biomes from "the mod", presumably Custom Biomes. What do you think, is this a confirmation Custom Biomes is being integrated directly?

I dio think you're misinterpreting the "those" part of the statement. I see "those" as meaning "biomes for other planets", not the mod specific ones.

[Renegrade]

Now maybe I'm reading too much into this, but it seems to me he just confirmed the Biomes they are adding are the exact biomes from "the mod", presumably Custom Biomes. What do you think, is this a confirmation Custom Biomes is being integrated directly?

Actually, if you listen around 7:35, Maxmaps says, "and thanks to a community contributor, who we will be talking about later [during the 0.26 update, not that video]... we are getting biomes EVERYWHERE ... and we might revise the Kerbin/Mun/Minmus ones...", which pretty much confirms your theory, unless there's someone ELSE with biomes.

(He also said that setting up a biome from scratch takes a full day's work per biome per body (and then mathed that up to 3 days per body somehow?)... and that it was usually HarvesteR who set them up... which suggests TERRIBLE workflow and tools to me)

[Alshain]

Good point Renegrade, I was thinking that too. To be clear, my guess is they are implementing the "Biomes" half of Custom Biomes, but likely not the "Custom" half. That is to say they will be fixed without additional modding.

[Sky_walker]

(He also said that setting up a biome from scratch takes a full day's work per biome per body (and then mathed that up to 3 days per body somehow?)

O_O They type it in the hex editor, pixel by pixel, or what?!

[Red Iron Crown]

There's some manual biome mapping involved, and I guess the larger the number of biomes on a body the more time it takes. Also need to come up with what the biomes will be (i.e. names, physical characteristics) on each planet and make sure they're mapped sensibly. They also need appropriate science values set for each of them, in balance with the rest of the system. I could see it taking some time.

[cantab]

Agreed, I can believe it taking a while. It's the decisions really - what crater is a biome, what isn't, what other features might you use, where do you draw boundaries, and so on. While a ten-minute scribble with the mouse would work, it would be deeply unsatisfactory.

[eataTREE]

I am compelled to say again how excited I am over this news. There will be enormously overcomplicated long-term interplanetary missions, with mobile laboratories and rovers and electric planes and boats to gather ALL OF THE SCIENCE, oh yes.

In fact, I doubt I can wait one more release for this, so I'ma just install the Custom Biomes mod.

[Alshain]

I am compelled to say again how excited I am over this news. There will be enormously overcomplicated long-term interplanetary missions, with mobile laboratories and rovers and electric planes and boats to gather ALL OF THE SCIENCE, oh yes.

In fact, I doubt I can wait one more release for this, so I'ma just install the Custom Biomes mod.

No doubt. I'm already anticipating 0.26 more than 0.25. 0.25 is cool and all but we have SP+ and that's about all the major features in it I will likely use. Some of the small things are good, but 0.26 has me really excited now.

[NecroBones]

Maybe what we need is procedural biomes.

[Alshain]

Maybe what we need is procedural biomes.

That wouldn't make any sense to me. Most the biomes are based off of the textures features. How would you like to have Great Flats be at the north pole of Minmus?

[CalculusWarrior]

No doubt. I'm already anticipating 0.26 more than 0.25. 0.25 is cool and all but we have SP+ and that's about all the major features in it I will likely use. Some of the small things are good, but 0.26 has me really excited now.

I agree, we're getting kerbal Experience too; which is one of my most hoped-for features!

[Renegrade]

O_O They type it in the hex editor, pixel by pixel, or what?!

That was almost exactly my thoughts.

I had flashbacks to programming in the 80s, when I was drawing icons for a planar graphics system:

unsigned char Smiley[8] =

{

0x3C,0x42,0xA5,0x81,0xA5,0xBD,0x42,0x3C

};

  1111  
 1    1 
1 1  1 1
1      1
1 1  1 1
1 1111 1
 1    1 
  1111

There's some manual biome mapping involved, and I guess the larger the number of biomes on a body the more time it takes. Also need to come up with what the biomes will be (i.e. names, physical characteristics) on each planet and make sure they're mapped sensibly. They also need appropriate science values set for each of them, in balance with the rest of the system. I could see it taking some time.

I could see the creative process taking SOME time, as creativity is a little less predictable and uh, deploy-able than reason or math, but the worlds already have science values set -- biomes don't have specific values, they are simply iterations of the existing science values.

For example, a Gravioli scan near in space above Eve will still have the same value after biomes are implemented. Eve right now is a 7x multiplier, and the base value of a Gravioli is 20, giving us 140 science. If you gave Eve ten biomes, it would still be 140 science, but now there would be ten results that could be transmitted/returned. If they wanted to reduce the science so it's the same, well, the multiplier would have to then be 7/10.

Anyhow, there's no way that "east farside crater" or "greater flats" took a whole DAY to come up with. I'd bet I could come up with a set of biomes for a world -- and a functional map -- within an hour using the CustomBiomes mod and ScanSat's elevation pictures...and most of that time would be me fumbling around in an image manipulation program, not knowing the controls^[1].

Also the text descriptions fall through gracefully to defaults, so one could just throw in a spatter of custom messages and leave the rest blank.

[1] - I actually did this at one point, reducing Kerbin to two biomes and Mun and Minmus to three as part of my "stem the massive dysentery of science" initiative. If I had specific, dedicated tools, I doubt it would have taken longer than three minutes. Also if I weren't completely Gimp-incompetent, it probably would have only taken six minutes without custom tools, as the (existing, and the ones I created) maps are pretty much based on elevation.

Agreed, I can believe it taking a while. It's the decisions really - what crater is a biome, what isn't, what other features might you use, where do you draw boundaries, and so on. While a ten-minute scribble with the mouse would work, it would be deeply unsatisfactory.

I don't know, I find the current ten minute scribbles to be fairly satisfactory~

Seriously though...Great Flats, Greater Flats? Midland Craters? Polar Crater? This is not days of work.

Here, I'll do Duna, RIGHT NOW, using the current custom biome map:

Polar Icecaps (obvious)

Equatorial Canal System (large series of canals/depressions/canyons that cross Duna's equator)

Great Equatorial Depression (the big depression that covers a sizable percentage of Duna's equator and northern region)

Lesser Equatorial Depression (antipodal to the Great Equatorial Depression)

Southern Basin (below the Great Equatorial Depression)

Southern Basin Mountain (in the middle of above)

Great Southern Mountain (the large moutain in the south)

Southern Crater Cluster (six craters southward, west of the southern basin)

Northern Crater Cluster (alternatively the smaller craters could be 'lesser craters' and bigger ones 'greater craters').

That took um... fifteen minutes, mostly typing and figuring out how to explain the picture. That would have left 45 minutes to draw the outlines of the topographical features, which isn't very hard with an elevation map (which is how the planets are put together to begin with).

I'm sure an amateur astronomer with a focus on planets could come up with better things in half the time using existing features of planets in the solar system.

I am compelled to say again how excited I am over this news. There will be enormously overcomplicated long-term interplanetary missions, with mobile laboratories and rovers and electric planes and boats to gather ALL OF THE SCIENCE, oh yes.

Way ahead of you there

[Yellowburn10]

I agree, we're getting kerbal Experience too; which is one of my most hoped-for features!

And to top it off, we'll also get new mk. 3 plane parts and better smoke trails, which were also pushed back to .26 along with kerbal experience.

[Renegrade]

Don't get me wrong, by the way, I love KSP, but speaking as a professional software developer, the pace of things is baffling.

I can't imagine Squad being big enough to have the endless meetings and bureaucracy that ties up and cripples large firms.

[Alshain]

His estimates likely incorporated the full cycle, not just the mapping of the biomes. Don't forget the play testing phase. They can map the biome, sure, but somebody has to go make sure it actually works.

[Geneborg]

What do you guys think, is this actually a good think SQUAD is doing, meaning looking for mods that fit into "we wanted to do that anyways" and trying to make a deal of some sort (i suppose thats whats going on?)? This would be the 2nd major one, right?

Personally, i'm not sure, but lean towards "yes, its ok", simply because it doesn't make a difference for us customers, and if both sides (squad+modders) get something out of it, why not?

If this becomes a trend, should it be accelerated to get to the 1.0 finishline faster?

[MKI]

His estimates likely incorporated the full cycle, not just the mapping of the biomes. Don't forget the play testing phase. They can map the biome, sure, but somebody has to go make sure it actually works.

Testing currently takes up easily 70% of the development cycle. I remember the Dev's finishing their own coding and base laying around 3-4 weeks ago, all the time up until then has been testing.

Really Squad enforces one thing well, its througho testing. After paying nearly 800 hours of this game i have yet to meet a game breaking bug, i have met my own share of bugs and issues but rarly and my experience with this game in my opinion is excellent. If squad stopped developing the game now, it would stand the test of time. Same goes for EVER update.

I feel the nature of the game keeps things from updating quickly. This isn't testing a map where players run around, we are testing a solar system with full fledge planets with physics, timewarp, player created craft, and huge rediculous numbers.

Hell the new update had how many new parts that must be tested, along with adding a whole new layer of gameplay to career? Theres many ways to play Career and KSP, all of which needs to be tested.

[Liowen]

but it seems to me he just confirmed the Biomes they are adding are the exact biomes from "the mod", presumably Custom Biomes.

I would caution saying that the biomes will be exactly like that, or any, mod out there right now, they might take elements out of them but it could be something completely different. To me personally I am going to give .25 time to become a thing first before worrying too much about what is mentioned about upcoming updates, that whole cart before the horse analogy thing you know.

[Sandworm]

There is talk of texturing some bodies (pre-christmas eye candy). If that happens, then I think it safe to assume that the new biomes would match the new textures rather than the old. So the customer biomes, imho, will not be literally copied into .26.

[Alshain]

What do you guys think, is this actually a good think SQUAD is doing, meaning looking for mods that fit into "we wanted to do that anyways" and trying to make a deal of some sort (i suppose thats whats going on?)? This would be the 2nd major one, right?

Second? Oh no. Most of the parts in the game were from mods. Many of the parts you know and love came from KSPX and got incorporated after they hired ClairaLyrae. While not technically a mod incorporation, the "new" KSC was designed by the creator of B9. Now Spaceplane+, and many features in the game were patterned after a mod though not identical to the mod.

I would caution saying that the biomes will be exactly like that, or any, mod out there right now, they might take elements out of them but it could be something completely different. To me personally I am going to give .25 time to become a thing first before worrying too much about what is mentioned about upcoming updates, that whole cart before the horse analogy thing you know.

The problem is some of us feel 0.25 is a bit lackluster so we need something to talk about. Personally I find a few of the little thing interesting but SP+ existed, I doubt I will use the Admin Building functions, I don't know why I would need to, I do like the difficult selector, but I will refuse to have the exploding buildings even turned on because.. why? It does nothing to advance space travel which is the point of the game. So yeah, it maybe putting the cart before the horse, but it's a horse that is incapable of pulling the cart anyway.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Alshain

[John FX]

What do you guys think, is this actually a good think SQUAD is doing, meaning looking for mods that fit into "we wanted to do that anyways" and trying to make a deal of some sort (i suppose thats whats going on?)? This would be the 2nd major one, right?

Personally, i'm not sure, but lean towards "yes, its ok", simply because it doesn't make a difference for us customers, and if both sides (squad+modders) get something out of it, why not?

If this becomes a trend, should it be accelerated to get to the 1.0 finishline faster?

Seeing the wonderful mods out there like KAC FAR EVE DRE and more (sorry if I did not mention you) I wouldn`t mind seeing some of them getting put straight into the codebase. It`s sort of a tradition.

EDIT : What I want is a new planet. Further than Eeloo with moons like jool. Maybe a ring that shows itself to be made from ice crystals that glitter or something. I`ve flown these planets so much that it`s not even funny anymore.

Edited October 6, 2014 by John FX

[lincourtl]

Second? Oh no. Most of the parts in the game were from mods. Many of the parts you know and love came from KSPX and got incorporated after they hired ClairaLyrae. While not technically a mod incorporation, the "new" KSC was designed by the creator of B9. Now Spaceplane+, and many features in the game were patterned after a mod though not identical to the mod.

Let's not forget C7 who made spaceplanes in KSP possible, was then hired by Squad, and most of his original parts were first included in 0.15 (see last post of this thread: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/1004-C7-Aerospace-Division-Part-3-%28Experimental-Gear-plugin-in-first-post%29).