Antares launch/failure discussion.

[lajoswinkler]

I'm surprised no-one's photoshopped in Jeb's little smiling face into the corner.

What do you think I'm doing parallel to this?

[PakledHostage]

I am. In fact, I was hoping we get some fireworks. Evil, I know, but I never do it with manned flights.

You weren't the only one having a little laugh at Orbital Sciences expense. Seems that someone had a little fun with the Orbital Sciences Wikipedia entry as well:

[Sky_walker]

The difference is a few valves and the control unit; the nozzle, turbopump and combustion are all soviet. If you look at pictures from the early test firings, you can see they didn't even bother to scrub off the 'HK-33' labels.

And there we go again. Evil Russians guilty of everything.

First of all - it's more that "few valves" and secondly - it doesn't change a thing if they scrap labels or not. Aerojet took a responsibility of refurbishing and delivering working engines to the Orbital Sciences. You can talk all you want - it changes nothing on who to blame. Aerojet is fully responsible for functionality of the engines. And they already took this responsibility in last malfunction, back in May.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Sky_walker

[GoSlash27]

Fingal,

Watch it in real time. The ignition happens at 7 seconds in. You'll see what I mean.

Best,

-Slashy

[Kulebron]

My guess is (bases purely on the visuals I've seen) that something went wrong in the second stage.

During T0 there is a bright yellow flash on top of the rocket Almost as if the second engine has ignited. At T+6 the eninge build up enough power to burn into the first stage which then exploded.

That bright flash is lens own reflection, I checked it twice, there were no actual flashes on top. Also, some smoke on the left could be tank safety valve at work.

[Kryten]

I'm not trying to be facetious, the difference is literally a few valves-five of them, to be exact. I don't see how it's the Russians fault if an engine doesn't work properly after this length of time in storage-it's a testament to the quality of the workmanship that only two have blown up so far.

[Fingal]

Fingal,

Watch it in real time. The ignition happens at 7 seconds in. You'll see what I mean.

Best,

-Slashy

You mean the flash of light at or just before the seven second mark? Because that's when the clamp on the right fires as well.

[Jasonden]

Based on the color change in the plume right preceding the explosion could be a busted transfer pipe or valve in the RP-1, causing a fuel-rich condition just prior to the explosion. Could be the AJ-26, could be the lower end of the tank system. Have to say that it looks bad for the AJ-26 tho.

[GoSlash27]

Catastrophic burnthrough of the turbopump. Book it.

-Slashy

Edited October 28, 2014 by GoSlash27

[Sky_walker]

And one more video:

http://instagram.com/p/uts_2Qqcus/?modal=true

Debriefing moved to 8:30 ET / 00:30 UTC / 01:30 CET

Official news on NASA website: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/structure/launch/orbital.html

Edited October 28, 2014 by Sky_walker

[AppleDavidJeans]

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g13/GoSlash27/Antaresfailure_zpsa0966f3a.jpg

That's the moment and point of failure. Right at ignition, there's a bang where there shouldn't be. Then the craft proceeds for a few seconds until a bigger explosion and zero thrust sends it back to the pad.

My money's on a turbopump burnthrough. This design runs extremely lean and routes it's exhaust directly into the chamber instead of over the side. It's very efficient, but also risky because things like this can happen.

Best,

-Slashy

I reviewed the footage, focusing on that little bang. The launch tower started moving away just moments after that bang occurred. Therefore, I'm not sure that little bang isn't related to the launch clamps releasing. I'm currently trying to find footage of previous launches this up close to determine if that bang did occur on the other launches.

Edited October 28, 2014 by AppleDavidJeans

[Sky_walker]

ORB3 cargo manifest with descriptions and pictures: http://www.spaceflight101.com/cygnus-orb-3-cargo-manifest.html (worth a read)

And the official news on Orbital Sciences website: http://www.orbital.com/NewsInfo/MissionUpdates/Orb-3/

Another video:

And... I'm off for today. CYA.

Feel free to keep on posting here an updates on the accident.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Sky_walker

[tntristan12]

It looks very much like a nozzle failure. It's funny, because we were just discussing nozzles in my rocket propulsion class, and the professor made it a distinct point to mention that most rocket failures occur in the nozzle design. Wild, baseless speculation - someone didn't do the analysis properly and they ended up with catastrophic, uneven flow separation in the over-expansion regime.

[Hydrazine_Soup]

lol

Edited March 5, 2020 by Hydrazine_Soup

[LethalDose]

Apparently the Cygnus vessel was named after Deke Slayton, who was chosen as one of the Mercury 7 but got grounded until the Apollo-Soyuz mission... Seems like an ill-omen.

Deke Slayton, you will not go to space today.

[Kulebron]

^^ Good observation. Watched and saw this flash too, much higher than engine bells. Could it still be pyrobolts that attached the rocket to the pad?

[GoSlash27]

I reviewed the footage, focusing on that little bang. The launch tower started moving away just moments after that bang occurred. Therefore, I'm not sure that little bang isn't related to the launch clamps releasing. I'm currently trying to find footage of previous launches this up close to determine if that bang did occur on the other launches.

Here's a good one:

1:19 at squib firing

The Antares uses squibs to release the launch clamps and they're on the base, not the side. A squib is like a shotgun shell; tiny puff of black smoke. That wasn't a clamp.

Best,

-Slashy

Edited October 29, 2014 by GoSlash27

[DerpenWolf]

It almost looked like the engine throttled up/started dumping fuel before it exploded (Bigger, brighter, longer flame. The explosion looked pretty clean). Hence my guess is that something broke in the plumbing (could cause more fuel to get dumped into the engine or outer piping could have bursted/leaked?)and then whatever was in the current system (what was still in the pipes) burned off till the rocket hit the ground, ruptured the tanks, and the whole thing went boom. Looks like the SRB blew right after they hit the ground.

Edited October 29, 2014 by DerpenWolf

[lajoswinkler]

It almost looked like the engine throttled up/started dumping fuel before it exploded (Bigger, brighter, longer flame. The explosion looked pretty clean). Hence my guess is that something broke in the plumbing (could cause more fuel to get dumped into the engine or outer piping could have bursted/leaked?)and then whatever was in the current system burned off till the rocket hit the ground, ruptured the tanks, and the whole thing went boom. Looks like the SRB blew right after they hit the ground.

This was liquid engine. Two stages. No solid rocket boosters. It was a massive deflagration. Even with LOX spillage, we didn't get a true detonation. This is exactly what I was predicting on one of the threads few months ago.

[PakledHostage]

ORB3 cargo manifest with descriptions and pictures:

Reading that manifest, it is clear that this launch failure really was a tragedy. Not a human tragedy, but a tragic loss of a lot of valuable scientific experiments and commercial equipment. This will be a huge setback for many many people.

[Kryten]

Second stage was solid.

[RocketPilot573]

Catastrophic burnthrough of the turbopump. Book it.

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g13/GoSlash27/Antaresfailure_zpsa0966f3a.jpg

-Slashy

I thought something looked wrong with that ignition.

Anyways, to me it looks like the engine assembly blew apart in flight, leaving the rest of the rocket to fall back onto the launch pad area... Any damage to the ground equipment (Probably)? This actually does sounds pretty Kerbal.

[DerpenWolf]

This was liquid engine. Two stages. No solid rocket boosters. It was a massive deflagration. Even with LOX spillage, we didn't get a true detonation. This is exactly what I was predicting on one of the threads few months ago.

I thought the Antares was RP-1/LOX for the first stage and an aluminum based SRB on the second? Probably shouldn't have said SRB but instead the solid fuel upper stage engine

Also

http://www.space.com/27571-astronaut-crab-cakes-space-delivery.html

Looks like someone isn't getting their crab cakes.

But seriously, I wonder how the crew on the ISS are feeling?

Edited October 29, 2014 by DerpenWolf

[Motokid600]

Assuming it was an engine failure... How long before another launch from VA would anyone here figure? The investigation, the repairs and if ( again, assuming ) the engines failed a reevaluation of the rockers design...

[Kryten]

The engines were to be replaced soon, anyway. The main issue would be the damage to the pad-it's not yet clear just how bad it is, but I'm going to say you're looking at at least a year there. It might even have damaged the second (Minotaur) pad, given how close together they are.