[1.1.2] Realism Overhaul v11.0.0 May 8

[Felger]

For those interested, I've posted a Dev thread for AutoPruner

It's 100% functional and will prune parts, just needs some polish. Fair warning, it requires the use of the command line at this point, but it's very easy to use. Have a look!

[Carraux]

Hello and welcome. Yes, the RCS will fire only when attached to a part that contains the appropriate fuel. The only way around this is to enable crossfeed for the part between them with the help of the Crossfeed Enabler mod, look in its thread for instructions. The easiest solution, however, is to use the same propellant configuration for RCS that you do for your main orbital engine, for example Aerozine + N2O4. This way you can simply attach RCS to your main service module tank, without having to use any separate RCS fuel tanks at all. Do you know how to switch the fuel configuration of RCS? (Switch to "action groups" menu, and click the RCS thrusters you want to configure to get to the detailed configuration menu).

Actually, during manual install via ckan, I did forgot to include the RCSEnabler mod (shame on me!). But adding this mod changes only the bug, it didn't remove it. So, even with RCSEnabler, I get the following symptoms:

* I take a MK1-2 Command pot, beneath a Rockomax Jumbo-64 fuel tank along with a Pratt & Whitney RL10 Series (2.5m) [this is either the old Mainsail or Skipper engine]. Noted: The MK1-2 uses Hydrazine

* I place 4 x RV 105 RCS thrusters on the Jumbo. Note, that the Jumbo does not offer a "crossfeed enable" option. Noted: These thrusters configure themselves automativally to Hydrazine as well.

* I place 4 Stratos Roundified Monopropellant tanks on the Jumbo, fill them with Hydrazine. Noted: They have a "crossefeed enabled" option, which is set to "on" by default.

I put this in the launch pad, enable thrusters and only the thrusters of the command pod fire.

Back to VAB, I create an action group for RCS, putting both the command pod and the additional thrusters into it and go back to launch pad. This time, when I activate RCS, the additional thrusters will fire instanlty and constanlty prograde (as if I would press "H" all the time), but will respond to any other keyboard command correctly.

Please try it for yourself, it will cost you only few minutes to reproduce.

Thank you!

Edited November 27, 2014 by Carraux

[Kitspace]

In the automatic installs questions I meant different things like optional configs that come with the mods that will be installed by default probably but can and will interfere with the global overhaul configs. Like shroud and power responce tweaks or fuel resource names and properties or the consumption rates for life support systems.

Also I have experienced a few weird random crashes while just sitting in the vehicle assembley building editor. Unfortunately it happened quite suddenly so I did not think that keeping the logs would be a good idea. Should this happen again I will post them here. I suppose it is a bug of some sort but it was very weird because I was just looking through the part list.

[Hattivat]

* I take a MK1-2 Command pot, beneath a Rockomax Jumbo-64 fuel tank along with a Pratt & Whitney RL10 Series (2.5m) [this is either the old Mainsail or Skipper engine]. Noted: The MK1-2 uses Hydrazine

* I place 4 x RV 105 RCS thrusters on the Jumbo. Note, that the Jumbo does not offer a "crossfeed enable" option. Noted: These thrusters configure themselves automativally to Hydrazine as well.

IIRC both the side tanks and the Jumbo need to have crossfeed enabled, because it works like a fuel line - for your current setup to work you'd have to have space configured for hydrazine inside the Jumbo to flow to, otherwise it's like having a fuel line from a tank to a wing (and not to the engine on this wing) - doesn't work. Since Jumbo does not have the crossfeed enable option by default, you would have to add it manually. This is why I mentioned looking for instructions in the thread for Crossfeed Enabler. Here, take a look: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/76499

However, the main problem here is that you are trying to do something completely unnecessary. You do not need a separate part for RCS fuel tanks. You can configure your Jumbo to have multiple containers with separate resources inside of it. Go into "action groups" menu and click on your jumbo. This should open a menu where you can manually enter resource amounts. Enter the amount of Hydrazine you would like to have and click update to add it. You could also enter your regular fuels manually, but that would be tedious. Better return to regular "part" mode of the VAB, right click on the tank and click the "...% LqdHydrogen/ ...% LqdOxygen" button to fill up the remaining space with appropriate fuels. Voila! Apologies that this isn't described on the wiki yet, I think I'll have to prepare an "intermediate" edition of my guide soon to explain such things.

On a side note, we recommend using procedural parts to create fuel tanks. Trying to use the stock ones with their pre-determined sizes unnecessarily increases the difficulty of creating a well-functioning rocket.

Edited November 27, 2014 by Hattivat

[Carraux]

IIRC both the side tanks and the Jumbo need to have crossfeed enabled, because it works like a fuel line - for your current setup to work you'd have to have space configured for hydrazine inside the Jumbo to flow to, otherwise it's like having a fuel line from a tank to a wing (and not to the engine on this wing) - doesn't work. Since Jumbo does not have the crossfeed enable option by default, you would have to add it manually. This is why I mentioned looking for instructions in the thread for Crossfeed Enabler. Here, take a look: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/76499

However, the main problem here is that you are trying to do something completely unnecessary. You do not need a separate part for RCS fuel tanks. You can configure your Jumbo to have multiple containers with separate resources inside of it. Go into "action groups" menu and click on your jumbo. This should open a menu where you can manually enter resource amounts. Enter the amount of Hydrazine you would like to have and click update to add it. You could also enter your regular fuels manually, but that would be tedious. Better return to regular "part" mode of the VAB, right click on the tank and click the "...% LqdHydrogen/ ...% LqdOxygen" button to fill up the remaining space with appropriate fuels. Voila! Apologies that this isn't described on the wiki yet, I think I'll have to prepare an "intermediate" edition of my guide soon to explain such things.

On a side note, we recommend using procedural parts to create fuel tanks. Trying to use the stock ones with their pre-determined sizes unnecessarily increases the difficulty of creating a well-functioning rocket.

Thank you very much for your quick response. Unfortunately, English is not my mother language so please apologize, if I couldn't myself make clear.

My initial problem, that it wouldn't work at all was purely my fault. I forgot to add the CrossfeedEnabler mod via CKan. I have already added it and crossfeeding works [for now]. In the example I mentioned above the problem is a different one: The RCS thrusters fires all the time (like I would press "H" all the time).

A last word to my setup with the Jumbo: This was only for reconstructing the error, not for real flight. My real ship uses procedural tanks and initially the Hydrazine tank was located inside the main tank (as you suggested), but now I have some radially mounted tanks, purely for asthetic reasons. Both variations work well with CrossfeedEnabler. Thrusters consuming Hydrazine now from the radial mounted tanks. But they fire instantly, when I activating the RCS system. Seems to me like a problem with some of the config files but I am not good enough with KSP internal stuff to know where to look at and to corecct it for myself.

For my real setup I am using - along with ProceduralParts - the FASA Apollo command pod and the whole thruster thingy with this pod and the service module gives me aheadache.

And while I am typing this I made an additional test and found something weird:

The thrusters are firering continouisly, because the rocket engine(!) is throttled up. Main engine throttled up (but not activated). If I press "R" to activate RCS, the additional thrusters will immideately fire. If I press "X" to set throttle to 0, they stop firing. I assume, that the RCS engine are handled internally like normal rocket engines and due to the fact that they do not need to get activated they fire according to the throttle setup.

The work around for me now is to use RCS only with throttle set to 0, even if the main engine is not activated at all.

Can anybody reproduce the problem?

Edited November 27, 2014 by Carraux

[Hattivat]

Ah, yes, now I know what your problem is. That is a setting that mechjeb has to make it possible to make manuevers with RCS-only (useful for satellites). You can turn it off in its settings.

[Carraux]

I found another problem:

I go to VAB, load my rocket and go to launch. Rocket looks like this:

Then I revert flight (to launch pad) and my rocket look like this:

Well, it is not the rocket itself, it's their stats...

See the differenc?

[Hattivat]

Yes, it seems like your third stage (or second, counting from the top as mechjeb does) suddenly acquired a lot of useless weight, resulting in reduced delta-v for itself and all of the stages below it. Does it happen every time you revert to launch with that rocket? Does it also happen if you revert to the VAB and launch again? What is it about your stage that changes (try right clicking on the parts that compose it)?

[Felger]

I found another problem:

I go to VAB, load my rocket and go to launch. Rocket looks like this:

http://i.imgur.com/NfM59wN.jpg

Then I revert flight (to launch pad) and my rocket look like this:

http://i.imgur.com/l19mdYp.jpg

Well, it is not the rocket itself, it's their stats...

See the differenc?

I've seen this happen, problem is you lost some oxidizer or fuel. Revert to VAB, and relaunch. You can go to the space center view to warp, or just put a probe core on the pad. I'm not sure where the bug that causes it lies, but there ya go.

[Hattivat]

I've seen this happen, problem is you lost some oxidizer or fuel. Revert to VAB, and relaunch. You can go to the space center view to warp, or just put a probe core on the pad. I'm not sure where the bug that causes it lies, but there ya go.

With all respect Felger, look at the starting masses of his stages. His rocket hasn't lost anything, seems quite the opposite is true, in fact.

I agree that reverting to VAB is the best course of action though, since this is quite likely a KSP glitch that we cannot fix.

[Felger]

You're right, that is weird. That's what I get for responding on my tiny little phone screen where I can't see the numbers!

Still, that mass has to come from somewhere, it'd be interesting to see a comparison of the resources panel before and after, as well as right clicking on the parts to see what may have changed. It'll help us determine what's causing the problem.

And thinking back on what I've seen, I've definitely reverted to launch pad, had the rocket weigh more (lower SLT), attempt to launch it, and have it run out of either fuel or oxidizer early. Perhaps there's a bug in RealFuels or Procedural Parts where one of the tanks is getting increased by an amount?

Either way, not a bug with realism overhaul directly.

[Carraux]

Yes, the problem vanishes if I return to VAB instead launch pad. But this is a workaround, nothing more.

My rocket really stops working due to out of fuel in the middle of the flight, so these figures represent my rocket "correctly" in a way.

Do not know what causes this instant weight gain. Probably Jebediah ate all snacks while I was away.

[Hattivat]

Haha, yeah, maybe. As Felger said, this doesn't seem like a bug in Realism Overhaul itself, but rather with one of the mods it uses, or perhaps KSP itself. But in any case it would certainly be better to know the reson behind this, so if it ever happens again, please try right-clicking on suspicious parts and let us know if you notice what caused the weight gain (ie. if it was fuel, the dry mass of the tank, or something else).

[Starwaster]

You're right, that is weird. That's what I get for responding on my tiny little phone screen where I can't see the numbers!

Still, that mass has to come from somewhere, it'd be interesting to see a comparison of the resources panel before and after, as well as right clicking on the parts to see what may have changed. It'll help us determine what's causing the problem.

And thinking back on what I've seen, I've definitely reverted to launch pad, had the rocket weigh more (lower SLT), attempt to launch it, and have it run out of either fuel or oxidizer early. Perhaps there's a bug in RealFuels or Procedural Parts where one of the tanks is getting increased by an amount?

Either way, not a bug with realism overhaul directly.

It's probably a bug in Real Fuels. In fact there actually was a known issue similar to this where tanks would have different mass when launching than in the VAB. This bug is probably related to that one, only it happens when reverting.

[IronStar]

There is an isuue- dont know if it is just me- all pressure fed engines in RO have respective characteristics of such engines, except aerojet aj10-137, which game treats like it is not pressure fed. And do they need ignitirs? As far as i know hypergolic fuel ignites on contact and doesnt need a special ignitor, am i wrong here?

Edited November 27, 2014 by IronStar

[Hattivat]

You are right, however in many cases the amount of times they can be safely restarted is limited, due to part wear and tear. In such cases, "ignitors" can be used to simulate that.

Aerojet aj10-137 not being treated as pressure-fed is definitely an oversight, will investigate, thanks for letting us know!

[Kitspace]

What engines do you use as vernier thrusters? What mods do they come with? Or what other means of gaining full adequate three axis control can be used if it is impossible or impractical with the main engines? Also the verniers in the pack are severely limited with the type of fuel they use as there are just three or four options even with mods and the choice of thrust categories is also quite limited. It would be very nice to find out where to get more or maybe some generic ones. Also I have noticed that many engines are modeled a few times with different part packs while the general selection of propulsion engines is kind of limiting especially if one sticks to one nation or space program parts only with a vessel. Do you think that more variety should be added?

I am sorry for not doing anything serious yet as I am quite busy currently but hope to get more time to really start modding or at least supplying information around the Christmas holydays.

[AlmightyR]

Here is a sneak-a-peek at a GUIed "version" I'm making of the AutoPruner.

It's actually a separate program with a different method for disabling the unwanted files, and I'll only use Felger's lists.

I think I will have it ready for release tomorrow night...

-----

In other news, the Vulcain's model is progressing well, and I'll also show a new progress-report screenshot soon. So stay tuned.

Edited November 28, 2014 by AlmightyR

[Felger]

Here is a sneak-a-peek at a GUIed "version" I'm making of the AutoPruner.

It's actually a separate program with a different method for disabling the unwanted files, and I'll only use Felger's lists.

I think I will have it ready for release tomorrow night...

http://i.imgur.com/MnS7voml.png

-----

In other news, the Vulcain's model is progressing well, and I'll also show a new progress-report screenshot soon. So stay tuned.

Awesome! I'm looking forward to both! Mine is honestly very simple and not super extensible, but it did what I needed it to.

It occurs to me, using a GUI like that it'd be very easy to create and save pruning lists, is that possible with the way you're doing it? Also, it'd be really nice if however it worked, it didn't interfere with CKAN installing or uninstalling to the pruned folders

Edited November 28, 2014 by Felger
Added a question.

[IronStar]

I have already posted this in KJR topic but maybe here is an appropriate place too, since i play RO after all(btw i use only mods that are stated to be compatible with ro). I have a following problem- no matter at all what i do the connection of decoupler with lower stage wobbles violently to the point of being unplayable at all- insane struts schemes help very little and it happens even at low TWR. Note that this doesnt happen when in the same rocket i attach the stage directly without decoupler. Setting attach node strength and decoupler strength to 10 in KJE cfg file didnt help.

[AlmightyR]

It occurs to me, using a GUI like that it'd be very easy to create and save pruning lists, is that possible with the way you're doing it? Also, it'd be really nice if however it worked, it didn't interfere with CKAN installing or uninstalling to the pruned folders

The lower-middle area is designed exactly for that. Basically, users will be able to "pull" (more like copy) individual parts/folders to/from the lists using the ">>>" buttons (I've included 2 more); Or enable/disable all items in a list at once, using the "Enable All" and "Disable All" buttons. The users can change the list they are working on using the "Load" button, and save changes to the lists using the "Save" button.

As for CKAN, I'm not sure I understand what you mean, but my plan is for the program to only deal with enabling or disabling files, and to rest in a separate folder in KSP's root (like the pruner), where it can store itself, maybe a config/settings file, the prune lists, and a folder for the disabled files (moving them in/out of GameData, instead of changing the extensions). A solution that simply changes the file-extensions instead of moving them is entirely possible (and I'll probably include it at a later update), but keeping the files inside GameData, even if they aren't loaded by the game, still slows the loading process down, because of the OSs' file-systems can't be sure there aren't files to be loaded until they look inside each folder and at each file's extension (having to traverse through all files regardless).

This is actually another thing that bothers me a bit about KSP...For the amount of files in GameData, it would be better to keep the files in a low-compression, but single-file ZIP (or another compression format), because the file-system's traverse can take up to 10ms each time it changes what file/folder it's looking into (because memory in the physical hard-drive might not be in continuous strips for reading, and the average time for the physical hardware to change what strips it's reading is a little above 10ms), while doing a small decompression and working with a logic-based file-system would be A LOT faster, because it would not lose so much time with file-systems' traverse-delays...

Edited November 28, 2014 by AlmightyR

[Felger]

I have already posted this in KJR topic but maybe here is an appropriate place too, since i play RO after all(btw i use only mods that are stated to be compatible with ro). I have a following problem- no matter at all what i do the connection of decoupler with lower stage wobbles violently to the point of being unplayable at all- insane struts schemes help very little and it happens even at low TWR. Note that this doesnt happen when in the same rocket i attach the stage directly without decoupler. Setting attach node strength and decoupler strength to 10 in KJE cfg file didnt help.

Unfortunately, there are a few bugs in the KSP structure code still, it's likely you've found one. As a workaround, try this:

Install SelectRoot

Use SelectRoot to rebuild your vessel around a part near your center of mass.

Launch and fly

Do note that this'll screw up your delta V calculations, so make sure you finish that part of your design prior to rebuilding with SelectRoot.

[ANWRocketMan]

I'm having a slight bug and I'm not sure what mod is causing this. it might be KJR but what bothers me it only happens above a certain part count(about 50). When I was developing the rocket it flew fine with a test payload(equal mass but only two parts). No problems. Then I tested the crew pod with only the first stage to see if the parachutes and so on worked. No problems. Then the moment I added the crew pod and the second stage plus first stage the game suddenly bugged out:

1. I was getting extremely low fps all of a sudden.

2. The staging is broken. Whenever I press spacebar, the game only stages one item in the next stage. So I have to press it several times to get through a stage. In addition this then removes the possibility of using boosters and so as it will not fire separation motors and so on etc. The same applies to action groups, it only stages one item p[er action group.

Here is the ksp.log from the last time I launched(the game crashed this time).

EDIT: I'll start removing some mods that might be causing this(KJR first) and see what happens. I do use the -force-opengl launch option but I tested it without it as well. Still happens.

I have and do use select root to get the first stage as the root part. Makes no difference.

EDIT 2: The problem is definitely KJR. I'll make a post there.

Edited November 28, 2014 by ANWRocketMan

[Ambulatory Cortex]

The MPDT thruster from Near Future Technologies appears to be borked. Gave it a liquid hydrogen tank full of fuel, and it still thinks it had no fuel. RO installed with CKAN.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/g752ottxsaz3sdw/MDPT%20failure.png?dl=0

Edited November 28, 2014 by Ambulatory Cortex

[IronStar]

I tried select root solution but it doesnt work too(ecxept when i make decoupler to be the root part the engine connection with decoupler begins to wobble instead decoupler to lower part connection). I ve done more experiments and noticed that not only decouplers wobble, but some other parts(like adapters) that stay between engine and lower part. Only parts not to wobble in position between engine and lower stage are fuel tanks that i ve didnt make TOO small.

Yes there are quite a few bugs but people do rockets in RO with KJE and it seems to work, i ve seen videos where rockets didnt have this issue.

And i also need to remind that KJE actually works for me, except issues described by me(i ve expiremented with many confs without coupler or adapter between stages and there is no wobble).

Edited November 28, 2014 by IronStar