Space Combat: Hand-to-Hand Edition

[shynung]

Most people imagine space combat would just involve ships shooting at each other, with various spaceborne weaponry. Little attention was given to the scenario I will now describe.

The premise: You are an astronaut on EVA, floating a few meters near your ship. Not some sci-fi warship, just a common space capsule, something like the recent Orion spacecraft. Ahead of you floats another astronaut, his suit bearing a flag of a group hostile to yours. Both of you are civilian astronauts, wearing regular space suits rather than some space-grade armor, and have no weapons other than your fists, what tools you happened to have strapped on, and your EVA jetpack. He wants you to be out of action just as well as you want him to be so.

The question is, how would you effectively put him out of action (doesn't have to be lethal), while preventing him from doing so to you, using as little effort as possible?

[astropapi1]

Am I wearing a SAFER? A swift kick to his helmet and back to my capsule might be enough, but I wouldn't count on it. Maybe trying to rip something on his suit apart so he suffocates?

The whole scenario is very unlikely and wouldn't really be something I'd do (more like wave at each other and have a nice spacewalk), so I'm not being as creative.

[meve12]

Are we using man-in-balloon suits, or skinsuits?

Not an expert in hand-to-hand combat, but we can assume a few things:

1. Newton's third law means that not only will the swing push us back unless we were anchored, but the hit would also push the enemy away, cutting energy delivered(and thus effectiveness) to a quarter of what it would normally be. You would have to anchor yourself to the enemy for any unpowered weapons/fisticuffs to be really effective, although using the MMU as a booster for a flying hit might work.

2. Assumption one also applies to thrown weapons.

3. You have a finite amount of MMU fuel and tools.

So I think in this scenario there would be two phases of combat;

The first would consist of what could charitably be called dogfighting: Both combatants would maneuver with MMUs in an attempt to make a perpendicular pass with the enemy so as to use thrown projectiles most effectively, whilst denying the enemy a shot at you. This would continue until MMU fuel or tools are reduced to "minimal"(this would vary on preference) levels.

The second would consist of tackling and grappling the enemy, preferably with a weapon to maximize damage and allow for more effective defense. If an combatant opens this phase by using a weapon as he's tackling the enemy, the increased relative speed will give him a powerful opening attack; otherwise it will come down to each combatant's skill in grappling.

[Umlüx]

the question i am asking myself is: floating in those somewhat rigid suits.. could one exert enough force to rip the other suit or smash the helmet?

[rodion]

i'm pretty sure the current generation of spacesuits doesn't allow anything that could fall under the class of combative actions. they're very restrictive of joint movement and rather fatiguing to wear when doing any sort of heavy physical work, plus maneuvering through open space is a highly non-trivial task (unlike the hilariously overpowered KSP EVA RCS packs that can virtually achieve munar orbit alone). as unlikely as this scenario is in the first place, i'd observe that if the astronauts were unarmed and in civilian capsules they would likely been in a non-war scenario and thus liable to charges of assault or homicide in earth courts. if on the other hand the astronauts were military they could rely on a very simple technology that's already been tested and rated for space - a gun.

[shynung]

Are we using man-in-balloon suits, or skinsuits?

Not an expert in hand-to-hand combat, but we can assume a few things:

1. Newton's third law means that not only will the swing push us back unless we were anchored, but the hit would also push the enemy away, cutting energy delivered(and thus effectiveness) to a quarter of what it would normally be. You would have to anchor yourself to the enemy for any unpowered weapons/fisticuffs to be really effective, although using the MMU as a booster for a flying hit might work.

2. Assumption one also applies to thrown weapons.

3. You have a finite amount of MMU fuel and tools.

So I think in this scenario there would be two phases of combat;

The first would consist of what could charitably be called dogfighting: Both combatants would maneuver with MMUs in an attempt to make a perpendicular pass with the enemy so as to use thrown projectiles most effectively, whilst denying the enemy a shot at you. This would continue until MMU fuel or tools are reduced to "minimal"(this would vary on preference) levels.

The second would consist of tackling and grappling the enemy, preferably with a weapon to maximize damage and allow for more effective defense. If an combatant opens this phase by using a weapon as he's tackling the enemy, the increased relative speed will give him a powerful opening attack; otherwise it will come down to each combatant's skill in grappling.

Well said. Though, I think I see a few more things that I can add.

Attacking the adversary from behind, either in the dogfighting or grappling phase, seemed like a good idea. Not only you are in a position where the enemy has less capability to defend himself from, you'd have access to his MMU/LSS pack. Disabling the MMU, and then simply flying away from the helplessly-immobile enemy would be a good tactic. Of course, you can also mess with his oxygen pipes for a much faster result.

the question i am asking myself is: floating in those somewhat rigid suits.. could one exert enough force to rip the other suit or smash the helmet?

If you use something like a screwdriver, then it's possible. Though, you don't need to smash helmets or rip off parts of the suit; a puncture on the helmet, or any other pressurized section, would have been just as deadly.

Edited November 21, 2014 by shynung

[Tommygun]

Something to keep in mind is that space suits use materials similar to Kevlar like cloth to prevent punctures.

The helmets also use tough materials similar to armored glass. You're not going to do anything to them without a good purpose built weapon.

With limited mobility I won't be surprised if hand weapons like knives or picks wouldn't work ether.

Maybe a powered drill or saw, but would be awkward to do in micro gravity and stiff joints.

Maybe the guy that doesn't pass out from exhaustion first wins?

Edit: Space Combat: (Part 2) how to jack a spaceship.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Tommygun

[shynung]

Something to keep in mind is that space suits use materials similar to Kevlar like cloth to prevent punctures.

The helmets also use tough materials similar to armored glass. You're not going to do anything to them without a good purpose built weapon.

With limited mobility I won't be surprised if hand weapons like knives or picks wouldn't work ether.

Maybe a powered drill or saw, but would be awkward to do in micro gravity and stiff joints.

Maybe the guy that doesn't pass out from exhaustion first wins?

Mmm. An angle grinder comes to mind.

Spraying their helmet visor with something sticky that blocks their vision, like tar, could work.

Edited November 21, 2014 by shynung

[dansmithers]

Push him away, use tools as reaction mass to return to capsule.

/fight

[shynung]

That'd be risky. The other guy might grab your arm as you attempt to push him off and swing you away instead.

Besides, both astronauts have EVA jetpacks (earlier referred to as MMUs, manned maneuvering units), so he (or you) could simply fly back to the ship if being pushed away.

[SciMan]

Both of you are civilian astronauts, wearing regular space suits rather than some space-grade armor, and have no weapons other than your fists, what tools you happened to have strapped on, and your EVA jetpack

You're also "Floating a few meters from your ship"

The ship itself makes a very formidable weapon in its own right. My first move would be to get back in my ship.

After that, I'd use the exhaust from its propulsion systems (even if just RCS) to damage the enemy's suit systems. All thruster exhaust is hot, except cold gas thrusters as used in MMU type devices. Even simple monopropellant RCS thrusters will be capable of causing significant damage, doubly so if they are fueled by Hydrazine instead of hydrogen peroxide (aka. High Test Peroxide, H2O2 of 85-98% purity). Hydrazine is highly toxic, and coating the enemy's spacesuit with the reaction products of it will cause a lot of problems for the enemy if they get back to their own ship. They won't be able to take off their own suit without running a severe risk of poisoning themselves.

If that wasn't an option, I'd just pilot my ship to impact the enemy's spacesuit. I'm not looking to do a full-throttle "Ramming Speed!" attack, instead I'd try to make contact with them THEN fire the engines, to minimize any potential for impact damage. Besides, I'm certain that a spaceship is more durable than a suit, especially one specifically stated to be not armored any more than the suits used currently on the ISS. That lack of armor means that they're going to take most of any damage that does occur. The idea is to change the enemy's speed by 5-10 m/s more than the capability of their MMU. They then inevitably run out of consumables, because they don't have enough fuel to make it back.

Some people might call this cheating, but only a fool willingly enters a fair fight.

[Kryten]

Out just get in the ship and leave. Given they apparently don't have a ship nearby, they're doomed regardless.

[DaveofDefeat]

Why not get in the ship and lock him out?

Then you can just wait for him to run out of air.

[Soda Popinski]

Anchor yourself and grab one of their limbs and try to spin them. I'm sure it'll take a while to regain attitude control, meanwhile get inside your capsule and lock it.

The helmet is made of high-impact poly-carbonate. That's not cracking. And it's on the center-line of the body, lined up with the Center of Mass if you are moving vertically. You could use either your boots or your helmet to ram them off center (shoulder, arm, back-pack) to get them to spin. Meanwhile, the impact to you would have been on center, leading to less spin.

I don't think you would have the dexterity for this, but good way for a blunt force impact would be based on the Muay Thai knee, where you grab your opponent (clinch / plum), and thrust your knee in. Unlike a kick, or punch, where you push off the ground, which won't work in microgravity, you essentially pull your opponent into your own knee. This gets around the inability to hold your ground, and the backward reaction movement from a typical kick or punch after you connect (dumping half your energy away). In typical Muay Thai fashion, the target would be the chest or gut, which seems iffy with space-suit flexibility. Instead, I think the groin would be a reachable target. I'm not sure how much protection would be there, so you could get the reaction one would like from kneeing someone in the groin.

Cool, blended my interest in space and martial arts!

[meve12]

Well said. Though, I think I see a few more things that I can add.

Attacking the adversary from behind, either in the dogfighting or grappling phase, seemed like a good idea. Not only you are in a position where the enemy has less capability to defend himself from, you'd have access to his MMU/LSS pack. Disabling the MMU, and then simply flying away from the helplessly-immobile enemy would be a good tactic. Of course, you can also mess with his oxygen pipes for a much faster result.

A good point, with one problem; maneuvering behind him without him turning after you would be difficult, as he'd want to be able to keep an eye on you.

[meve12]

You're also "Floating a few meters from your ship"

The ship itself makes a very formidable weapon in its own right. My first move would be to get back in my ship.

And how do you keep the enemy from following you? Even just grabbing the ladder before you can maneuver can prevent you from using RCS as a weapon, and he has the tools to work his way in unless you go out after him.

That being said, if the door opens outward you have another, somewhat comedic weapon.

[shynung]

Out just get in the ship and leave. Given they apparently don't have a ship nearby, they're doomed regardless.

He'd try to attempt to get into the ship and lock you out as well, given that he doesn't want you to do anything useful.

[Camacha]

I am not too sure astronauts/cosmonauts would even fight. They probably share more than they differ. They are not your average run-of-the-mill soldiers.

[peadar1987]

Why would two civilians even do this?

[shynung]

Various reasons. They could be employees of arch-rival asteroid mining corporations that happen to have a make-sure-the-other-corp-fails policy. They could be gangsters in space contesting the ownership of the surrounding orbital region. ^{(I've played too many Saints Row IV recently.)}

Whatever it is, I'm thinking about theoretically putting two really-pissed-off civilian astronauts facing each other in orbit, wearing EVA suits and armed with assorted space tools, and attempted to discuss what would they do to each other through this thread.

[Soda Popinski]

Why would two civilians even do this?

Space Madness?

Anyway, not unarmed combat, but still interesting:

Combination shotgun / rifle on every Soyuz. Officially in case of wolf or bear attack upon landing.

http://io9.com/cosmonauts-used-to-carry-insane-machete-guns-in-space-1658486907

[Tommygun]

Space Madness?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/06/us/06cnd-astronaut.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0