Building In Space ? Landing Assistance Moons Vs Atmosphere.

[Battlesloth]

Hey Guys and Gals, Loving the game and have had a great time playing this can really go somewhere. 1) Building In space, Few Questions : Whilst I have many larger ship part docking power rings etc all in space in alignment and ready to build I have had no if limited success in docking. Yes I can get them aligned and in same orbit, I have even attempted to use the KAS Mod Kerbal Attachment Systems with Crane and everything which doesn't appear to assist. I was thinking possibly I would need to Dock the modules and then use Cranes maybe ?. Just wondering how other players are doing this or is this only through mods. However if anyone could assist me in finding a AUTO Docking mod this would be beyond belief and can start kolonizing far planets. I use Mechjeb etc but not great at landing I dont think it does anything but put a marker and the most useful thing the height from ground not visible especially when landing on dark side of moon.... I also can land on Mun and return to earth with some of my ships but I would still say 8 out of 10 of my attempts end in less than happy circumstances, still only able to land small crafts, Soo if anyone has great mod or way to land larger ships be great. Which would lead me to next Question.. 2) Landings As mentioned above I can do Moon landing and haven't attempted much further out as yet, so I would assume the outer body also would have atmospheres but is there anything different than land on home planet or do they all not have atmospheres ?. I have some ships on way with fuel recharger on board like propellants so never run out of fuel but takes time to orbit recharge. Hate to get this far and fail. So with the mining mods and remote drone to mine etc, I would like to effectively hit the same spot so some type of landing assistance mods would be beyond helpful. Any one know if they exist ?

Edited November 29, 2014 by Battlesloth

[GoSlash27]

Question #1)

I have absolutely no experience with mods, so I have no idea what you're referring to when you talk about "cranes".

Assembly in orbit in the stock game is really just a matter of intercept/ rendezvous/ dock. Lots of videos to explain how we do it, and this one helped me out tremendously early- on:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ciFCKgyx48

2) Landing on each body is a unique process. Most do not have atmospheres, so it's a retroburn.

Your lander needs to be able to achieve 1G local (check the wiki) when full and the process is fairly straightforward: Keep your nose pointed retrograde and follow a rule of 10s similar to docking. As you get close to landing, it's easy to get disoriented when killing your lateral speed.

The way I do that is to start the deorbit burn inverted and backwards. By the time I'm slowed to a near- hover, I'm viewing the lander from behind so control responses are where I expect them to be.

I'm sure there are good tutorials out there on retroburn landings, but I've never seen one.

You're on the right track so far. Success in this game will require 1) an ability to rendezvous and dock in orbit, 2) an ability to pull off a retroburn landing, and 3) an ability to land close to a desired point. And of course 4) being able to design the entire mission within the delta v budget before launch.

Good luck!

-Slashy

Edited November 25, 2014 by GoSlash27

[Taki117]

I point you to Scott Manley to answer your questions. The videos may be a few versions behind, but the information is still very valid.

1)

2)

[Jarin]

The Docking Port Alignment Indicator mod is something I couldn't live without. Use it. Love it. Never have trouble docking again. (and don't mind the 0.23.5 version marker, it works just fine)

[Higgs]

Okay I am going to down a different road. First get mechjeb. It can do what no amount of reading and watching tutorials and suggestions cant: use YOUR SHIP to do the procedures, which shows how YOUR SHIP behaves, which is INFINITELY SUPERIOR teaching tool than any written or video tutorial. Second look for Romfarers Lazor docking cam, its more realistic than DAI.

[The Yellow Dart]

Sorry to go against the last 2 posts, but I find that one of the best moments you'll ever have in KSP are moments when you accomplish something you couldn't do before. These moments are lessened in significance when you have to give in and install a helper mod to finally get it. You can do it, everything you need to dock and land on foreign bodies is available in the stock game, you just need to get your head around what needs to be done and what you've done wrong so far.

A few pointers to help you succeed at docking:

1. Practice first. Before trying to launch a full mission that requires docking, launch 2 identical craft with plenty of RCS and well balanced RCS thrusters (use 2 sets of 4 blocks equi-distance from the center of mass on the craft) and just practice docking and undocking and redocking for a while. Don't forget to use caps lock to turn on fine controls as needed! Also I recommend ignoring docking mode and just learn to switch between the WASD keys for rotational control of your vessel (pointing it in the right direction) and the IJKL and HN keys for translational control (basically strafing your ship while maintaining they same pointing direction)

2. Go slowly, VERY slowly while you are learning. It sounds from your post that you are able to rendezvous just fine so here is what you need to be able to do:

a. use target mode on your Navball to cancel out velocity COMPLETELY when you are near the target, before switching to RCS controls. This is done by thrusting towards the yellow retrograde marker while in target mode until speed is 0.0m\s. This will give you a baseline to work from and ensure you can take your time and go slow. Remember that if you get going too fast in one direction you can always reverse your key presses to cancel out what you've done.

b. Control the vessels from the chosen docking ports and target each one. You can switch between vessels quickly with the [ & ] keys and then control from the docking ports and target the other port with right clicks.

c. Orient vessels. This means point the two ports at one another, but also orient each craft so that your RCS controls make visual sense. This means rotate the craft until, as your camera is looking forward towards your target, pushing A turns left and pushing D turns right, and pushing J slides you left and pushing L slides you right. This will help immensely if you make a mistake and want to correct it, as you will be able to use your eyes first rather than having to think about what button will move it what way.

d. Use the Navball. It is good to be able to use visual cues to dock when possible but when you are moving very slowly at like 0.2m/s it can be hard to tell exactly what direction a craft is actually moving in relation to its target. On the Navball, your velocity vector (yellow circle) shows your relational movement to the target. If it is to the right of the target marker, you are going to pass to the right of the port. if it is above it, you will pass above the port. Use the IJKL keys to adjust it so that both your pointing and vector are on your target. It may start drifting over time, just keep correcting.

e. Move forward slowly with everything lined up, and DOCK! Hopefully.

Since I wrote way too much about docking I'll be brief about moons. If you have trouble getting back you either need to add more fuel or take of weight or use a more efficient engine or all of the above possibly. The Atmospheric Trajectories mod will help with landing near a target, since that is something that the game actually doesn't help you enough with. It's very difficult to predict an exact landing spot with atmosphere, but that mod will help.

[Higgs]

@the yellow dart, while what you wrote is excellent, there is absolutely no substitute for using mechjeb. In our OP's case as a teaching tool. Your essay on docking while good cannot show our OP how his ship will behave, and this is what mechjeb can do. It will fly for him as long as he uses the right sequencers as he goes stating what it is that it is doing, and as its doing it he can watch in real time as it happens. No tutorial can do this. I hear you saying but Higgs videos do this. I counter with, no they in fact do not. They show what SOMEONE ELSE'S ship does, not the OPs. This is why I suggest mechjeb. Great teacher then great grunt work doer.

[cantab]

Regarding docking, first understand that rendezvous and docking are two different things. Rendezvous is getting close to the target going the same speed in the same direction, which means you are in almost the same orbit. This is useful by itself as you can then fly kerbals across by EVA. Rendezvous is generally carried out using your main engines, with RCS optional for fine tuning.

Docking is, once you're rendezvoused, actually joining the two ships. To practice docking without needing to worry about rendezvous, launch a ship that's actually a couple of ships docked together. Undock them in orbit, fly one gently around a bit the other, then redock them. Docking is generally carried out with RCS, so make sure your ships have a well-balanced arrangement of thrusters and enough monopropellant. (With practice you'll be able to do it on the command pod amount alone, but for starting I suggest one or two sensible-sized monopropellant tanks.)

As for landing, well all vacuum bodies are basically the same, but the larger the body the quicker everything will go and the more capable the lander needs to be in both thrust-to-weight ratio and delta-V. A mod such as Engineer that displays the surface altitude is incredibly helpful; in the stock game you can only see this info in the IVA view. Try not to land on the dark side! If you must, pack powerful lights pointing down and extra fuel to fly with if your first landing zone is bad.

The atmo bodies are more varied. Eve is pretty easy to land on, you just need parachutes, but do be sure your landing gear is solid because of its high gravity. Eve is very hard to get back into orbit again from though.

Duna is more challenging to land on, the air is very thin and parachutes alone usually aren't enough, be prepared to use your engines to cushion your landing. Also try and aim for somewhere low. Taking off again isn't too hard, requiring a bit more delta-V than a Mun landing.

Landing on Laythe is almost exactly like landing on Kerbin, the air is slightly thinner so you might add a couple of extra parachutes. But it's mostly ocean, so I suggest planning for a water landing. It's relatively hard to get back into orbit, though easier than a Kerbin launch. Alternatively, jet engines work on Laythe so you can take a spaceplane.

Descending through Jool's atmosphere is fairly simple. There is no solid surface to land on, your craft will be destroyed when it descends below the 0 m mark. Returning to orbit from its depths is just about the hardest thing you can attempt in KSP.

[DerekL1963]

Sorry to go against the last 2 posts, but I find that one of the best moments you'll ever have in KSP are moments when you accomplish something you couldn't do before. These moments are lessened in significance when you have to give in and install a helper mod to finally get it.

For some people, yes. For others no. There is no universal way to enjoy this game. That's what makes it so attractive to so many people.

[DrD]

I learned to dock just fine without Mechjeb. The tutorials helped a lot as did practice and understanding the mechanics.

Now I can't remember why I thought it was hard.

[MarvinKitFox]

I want to help, really I do, but I seem to hit a wall when reading your post.

Sorry.

[Skorpychan]

1. MechJeb. Automatic pretty much everything. I used it to figure out rendezvous and docking, and only use it for the former now; it wastes a LOT of monopropellant in docking, and gets it wrong sometimes. Sod that.

2. No atmosphere = Mun landing, only with more gravity. With atmosphere = Like Kerbin, only with different amounts of aerobraking and gravity.

Some bodies have atmospheres, some do not. Check the wiki for more information on that.

[Higgs]

I want to help, really I do, but I seem to hit a wall when reading your post.

Sorry.

not to be a backseat anything here, BUT, to me, and this is just me of course, your post seems rather unhelpful to our OP, but helpful to your post count. I understand that the OP has a large wall of text, but, given that he appears very new, its understandable. again, my opinion only of course, why bother posting to our OP if all you can do is say: i want to help, but cant be bothered to read all of your question." ? Look, I am not trying to be snarky, but, it honestly puzzles AND bothers me to see posts like yours in threads like this. Again, no offense.

[Battlesloth]

Hi All, And thanks for the all the response and thanks for the Planet entry info too... However just to clarify a few thing its not that I am unable to Dock and after 3 long days I have this down pat, however I mostly play in the sandbox mode and this has limitation and no quests available but with learning it invaluable for all the training and testing you need to do. I mostly like the game play for Building Rockets Lander, Rovers etc and planetary exploration and now getting into all the MODS. I do use about 25 different ones now working fairly stable only issue is in building hanger sometimes crash when you go way to big. I do like the new mods like Kolonization Mod and the new Massive B9 Part for building which are too big to get off the ground in one piece. So with playing with some new part and looking into sending out Ships with Lander etc to all the planet take a look at the Mining Mod after the colonies established on all the worlds, however due to the new power requirements I need about 40 flights to build it all together. This is where my problem starts, 1) When I am docking I like to transfer between the two ships to aligning easier for docking procedure, however when you are about to dock the Space map makes it almost impossible to select the correct ship as you are almost met in space. A second delay and your blown up, so this is why I was looking into a Docking Mod, its not that I carnt do it its so time consuming and when I want to launch over 400 parts in total this will drive me nuts. 2) No matter how aligned you will be there no less than 20-30 min pressing H and N waiting for Lock. What the its perfectly aligned too.... 3) Also when traveling now I have my space station combined I can not tell if this will break apart as for the Docking ports appears to flex and bend in space when setting new orbits and only taking it slow. These are not the Massive Docks which appear to lock without issue so far about 4 Electric Engines now combined to drive the new 50,000 thrust wanting to see this Warp Thing and what it does really. So do the smaller Docking port fall apart ?, I am trying this Crane Mod thing but beats me how to make it work in space doesn't appear to lock to anything. I will send a docking port into Orbit later once main vessel is assembled to see if that make any difference but shouldn't as different mods. From forum i can see people talk about building in space with containers to send parts up which I have in orbit just carnt use them in space is all. Trying to stick on Struts after my space station docked to more secure so i can send it out further in space. Either way I have the docking down even massive parts with no issue just the time it takes is exhaustive and selecting between ships is annoying. I guess my first problems was due to the massive Size of the parts I was docking. I will update this post later when I test these auto Take Off Resource Drones from Davin Mod, I will use TAC to test so will need to fly out massive food water and waste and Life Support Tanks to test this may take some time as have 5 massive part in orbit awaiting docking. To summarize I MechJeb and use the "Hoffman Intercept Maneuver" when I am close I turn it of and manually drive it in with H and N keys and A,S,D,W. I am just finding it limiting in exploration and it may take a few months real life to assemble and with no save feature on mission whole thing could be waste of time. To my knowledge and searching there is nothing out there which will Auto Dock and the Auto Refuel Bot I have not yet tested but limited to refill stocks only.

[Higgs]

Battlesloth im not usually one to complain about walls of text, but, man, that could use some serious spacing, cuz that made my eyes hurt. And its not Hoffman, its Hohmann. Sorry had to correct that, as I couldnt stop seeing Phillip Seymore Hoffman's face cropping up in my mind.

That being said, welcome to the fun

[MockKnizzle]

You know you can press the bracket [] keys to switch between ships in the local vicinity, right?

[RainDreamer]

Might be some docking bugs happening with ports falling aparts.

But you can try infernal robotics to create a robotic arm for berthing assist to help connecting module in close proximity. It will hold things in place so you won't be afraid of hitting something too hard and bounce off. But it will take a bit more time and practice to get used to comparing with just plain old docking, since stock docking ports has magical magnetic power to connect them.

[Meecrob]

Now I can't remember why I thought it was hard.

This.

I remember a time when I was learning to dock and literally thinking "well, I can't dock. I've been a pilot for 15 years and playing flight sims for 20 and KSP beat me." Then I watched a South Park, cleared my head a little and practiced some more. I have not missed a docking since. Took about 4-6 game hours to get it down pat. I guess my advice is to push through that initial overwhelming feeling of difficulty and keep practicing, because I found that it was memorizing the procedure that helped me the most. You should start to feel comfortable when you don't have to alt-tab to a tutorial or look at one on your phone. When you know what step comes next, you can begin to increase confidence.