New Space Flight Simulator Project

[MAFman]

Hey guys, so I've been planning a space flight simulator inspired by .23.5 KSP and several of the best mods IMO such as FAR, DR, RT, SP+, EI, RF, PF, PWings, Procedural Parts, RPM, RSS, RealEngines, RealChutes, EVE, TAC LS, HotRockets/SmokeScreen, and others I can't remember right now. Would anyone be interested in collaborating with me over the next few years on this? I plan on starting it soon and continuing to work on it while I'm at college (probably really overestimating the amount of free-time I will have but oh well).

[Bill Phil]

Do you have any experience with coding, modeling, physics, etc. ?

[NovaSilisko]

Starting a project with the basic synopsis of "it will be just like ___, but better" is often a good way to set your goal beyond your grasp and fail miserably.

As Bill Phil said, what experience do you have in this subject? Not just the technical aspects, but actual game design as well.

[MAFman]

Starting a project with the basic synopsis of "it will be just like ___, but better" is often a good way to set your goal beyond your grasp and fail miserably.

As Bill Phil said, what experience do you have in this subject? Not just the technical aspects, but actual game design as well.

Yeah, I have next to no experience developing any kind of game. I just wanted to make something similar to KSP that I didn't have to spend money on, with features I could control. Back to the drawing board - with some help.

[TheCanadianVendingMachine]

Yeah, I have next to no experience developing any kind of game. I just wanted to make something similar to KSP that I didn't have to spend money on, with features I could control. Back to the drawing board - with some help.

So you're the ideas guy?

[*Aqua*]

Squad needed a team of 10 to 15 guys and 3 years to make KSP to what it is now. Let's just say the developers work 1760 hours a year (8 hour/day * 5 days/week * 4 weeks/month * 11 months/year). That's a total of 52800 to 79200 man-hours or ~6 to ~9 man-years (24 hours work every day for years!).

And you want to do the same in your free time with the help of a few interested fans and being inexperienced? Nope. That'll never work out. You'll have grey hair before you can release anything playable.

Edited November 30, 2014 by *Aqua*

[NovaSilisko]

I just wanted to make something similar to KSP that I didn't have to spend money on, with features I could control.

... *smack*

[Bill Phil]

I'm sure that it can happen, just look at the KSP Community Cubesat project. You just need to get this off the ground and get enough community members to help out. Okay, maybe not "just need to", but that would be a good start.

Maybe it'll become a megathread?

EDIT: Divide the game development into steps that add up to your final goal, you want to build a foundation to work on first, not the whole skyscraper

End EDIT

anyways, good luck.

Edited November 30, 2014 by Bill Phil

[*Aqua*]

get enough community members to help out

At least 60 are needed to archive approximately the same development speed of Squad.

So you have 61 opinions now how things have to be done. Yeah, development will be easy and smooth.

[Bill Phil]

Never said it would be easy or smooth.

[MAFman]

So you're the ideas guy?

Yeah, but I appreciate more opinions.

[MAFman]

Uhh...crap... Well, this doesn't have a deadline, per se. So if I can get that many people on board with this, my team and I could develop this game (hopefully) before I finish college in about 4.5 years. It'll be a LOT of work though...

[megatiger78]

game deving cost money. more money then game buying. buy the game and use mods.

[astropapi1]

Why don't you just play KSP with those mods? Dude, you're trying to reinvent the wheel.

It's like saying "I can't afford to buy a car, so I'm going to design and build a car just like that one. Anyone wanna help?"

I'm usually very optimistic, but you took this beyond the grasp of reason. The guys developing KSP are professionals, people who went to college to do just that, design and develop games. You on the other hand, have no experience and are trying to make a copy of KSP with a few interested people.

To be honest, this feels like the worst attempt at pirating a game I've ever seen.

Edited December 3, 2014 by astropapi1

[*Aqua*]

Uhh...crap... Well, this doesn't have a deadline, per se. So if I can get that many people on board with this, my team and I could develop this game (hopefully) before I finish college in about 4.5 years. It'll be a LOT of work though...

I don't know how it's handled in your country but in mine you are supposed to study 9 hours per day (consisting of lectures, homework and self-study). Let's assume in your country you'll have to study 8 hours per workday. And after that you want to develop a game for another 8 hours? And in the last 8 hours of the day, you eat and sleep?

Sorry but I don't think you have an idea how much work you have to put into a game.

First you'll ne a game design paper which contains everything from the behavior of buttons to core game mechanics and the color of each pixel. Usually that's about 100 - 500 pages and needs about 6 months.

Second you do a market analysis to see if this game can make money (this takes about 1-2 months) and draw some investors in.

Third if there is a demand for your game and you have the money, you and at least one software architect and several software designers work through the game design document to create a 'blueprint' of the software. Several iterations later you and your team mapped out every function and method the program must have. This step can take up to 6 months.

-- Now a year has passed and you did nothing but paperwork. --

Fourth you start developing. There are about 3-4 coders needed to create the engine / modify an existing engine and put your game mechanics on top of it. This takes 6-12 months. After that time period you'll usually only need 1 or 2 coders to fix bugs, extend or costumize the engine according to changing plans.

While the coders are working you'll need 5-150 designers to model and texture all game objects (don't forget the UI!). To produce all assets you'll usually need 2-4 years.

Meanwhile you'll have a team consisting of professionals and potential consumers (total ~20-50 people) which will test every aspect of your unfinished game.

-- Now 3 to 5 years have passend since the beginning. --

You worked at least 8 hours per day. At the end of the development it's not uncommon to work up to 15 hours per day. Sometimes there are no weekends because a deadline is coming near and a feature just don't want to work.

After reading all this do you really believe you can pull this off while going to college? Oh come on...

Of course you can slow development down but at the same time you move the release date 20 years into the future.

Edited December 3, 2014 by *Aqua*

[NovaSilisko]

First you'll ne a game design paper which contains everything from the behavior of buttons to core game mechanics and the color of each pixel. Usually that's about 100 - 500 pages and needs about 6 months.

I'm not sure you know anything about how this actually works. I have never encountered anyone in game design who does things that way. That's complete insanity. You want to start getting stuff being made ASAP. What you're describing sounds more like a general software project, not a game, or some outsourced horrible corporate not-quite-AAA thing. I have no idea where you're getting the idea for a design document describing "the color of each pixel"...

Edited December 3, 2014 by NovaSilisko

[Bill Phil]

Work backwards from your final design goal. Write out what you want the game to be in a very descriptive way. Then you have to extrapolate what each step is. After that you figure out how you want to do it.

"Begin with the end in mind."

[Whirligig Girl]

You don't want to make your goal: "KSP, except better." You want your goal to be:

Spacexplorations

Features:

*Proper Newtonian and Keplerian orbit simulation using the Patched Conics approximation.

*Spacecraft construction and development.

*Re-enact the history or alternate history of NASA or the Soviet Space Program, or play as the Global Space Program or the SpaceCo. Space Company

*Multiplayer mode of up to 4 players.

--The United States of America with NASA

--The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics with the Soviet Space Program

--Global Space Program

--SpaceCo. (Only available after 1975)

*Research the Moon and the Planets of the Solar System, with a budgeted space program. Explore the accurate full collection of all known planets, moons, rings, and large asteroids in the Solar System.

*Procedural Terrain system ensure that all planets have accurate and interesting terrain.

*Launch Astronauts or Cosmonauts to increase your prestige and help win the space race.

*Or Launch Probes for a lower cost, size, and a potentially higher scientific reward.

*Integrated vehicle construction editor:

--Build rockets using various fuel mixtures, rocket engines, and an easy-to-use stretchable part system.

--Build spacecraft using various structural components, science experiments, Crew capsules, and life support systems.

--Build spaceplanes and aircraft using fuselages, wings, and a morphable structure system.

--Build rovers using structural objects, and a wheel-bogey system. Rocker-Bogies, Solid-Mounted Wheels, Suspension, whatever!

*Accurate and realistic approximation of aerodynamic effects such as Drag, Lift, Friction, Shock Heating, and Transonic Effects.

*Simulation of manufacturing errors and design faults present in R&D mode, and science can be done with these discoveries.

--This means parts may fail, especially in untested conditions.

--They can also fail if built too cheaply, or if damaged.

--Failure of components is fixable in some cases, so it's not a total endgame.

*Take on launch contracts for money, and build your space program up commercially.

*Recreate history or make alternate history.

*Sandbox mode available to play without the bounds of costs or research and development.

If you make a list of features, then you can checklist each one and work on another one. But for all I know, this idea is bull. I'm not a game designer, after all. One thing I've seen is that it sorta seems, by the list of mods you gave, that you mean actually using KSP itself and building off of that. Unfortunately that's something called "illegal".

[Bill Phil]

Well, perhaps you could use SQUAD's library, but with their permission!

You wouldn't check off each goal, you would figure out each goal's requirements, and their requirements, and so on. Like dominoes. It might take a while, but the last domino falls. Then you know what needs to be done at each step. Just figure out how.

Basically, make a very simple version of the game, with a sphere planet-sized and a sphere spacecraft-sized. Then you make it so that when you start the simulation, you input the current heading as well as orbital characteristics. It's a simple physics simulation, but it's a good start.

You then make the spacecraft capable of propulsion. And so on and so on. These are just example steps, but they aren't COMPLETE bull.

[*Aqua*]

I'm not sure you know anything about how this actually works. I have never encountered anyone in game design who does things that way. That's complete insanity. You want to start getting stuff being made ASAP. What you're describing sounds more like a general software project, not a game, or some outsourced horrible corporate not-quite-AAA thing. I have no idea where you're getting the idea for a design document describing "the color of each pixel"...

I'm sure you want to start ASAP. But at least you need to have an idea how the game should be and that is described in the design document.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131791/the_anatomy_of_a_design_document_.php

http://www.gamedev.net/page/resources/_/creative/game-design/developing-your-game-concept-by-making-a-design-document-r3004

Just start programming works on simple games like Tetris but not on the scale of KSP. I remember a KSP dev said (maybe one year ago?) they had to re-plan everything because their old concept wasn't fleshed out enough.

For really complex games like MMOs these documents can easily have more than 1000 pages. For something like KSP I expect at least 100 pages.

[sedativechunk]

To OP,

I happen to be a highly experienced, IT developer with probably about five years of experience specifically in game programming, audio, 3D modelling, and the works. I am currently developing my own game and am open to helping and joining other game development projects that interest me. But I have to say, from what I have read on here so far, I would NOT be interested in joining your project, sorry.

1) you are making a space simulator that sounds like KSP. Like one of these other guys said, why are you trying to re-invent the wheel? KSP is a fantastic space simulator game. It has a certain appeal to it that opened it up to the masses. It teaches basic physics while still being a fun and simple video game. To make something remotely like it would be pretty much be knocking off from this game at one point. People don't like and will not play a knock off of another game, especially in the indie game market. KSP is brilliant, I honestly consider it (despite some of it's minor setbacks) one of the top 5 best video games ever created in history.

2) Believe it or not, even though I love KSP, the businessman inside of me has thought about making a competing product. I don't think it's practical. KSP has a few weak points, one being that it is using a framework known as "Unity" and that is has technical limitations. To pass these technical limitations with a superior framework would require a great deal of money and investment into a more powerful game dev tool, and this is all on a hunch that your product would be better than KSP. Also, getting something more technical means longer development time in making an already complicated product about space travel and physics.

3) Have you ever attempted any type of game development? You are getting in way over your head if you think you will pull this off even remotely. Making a game like KSP is technically extremely complicated. This game has probably more mathematics and technical aspects to it than even most mainstream games. It is elementary rocket science, and making it would be very difficult. If you've never even tried game development, prepare to have your mind blown. 3D alone is a very difficult concept, and to do something on the scale of KSP takes a brilliant mind with a lot of patience and help from other people.

4) MAKE SOMETHING ORIGINAL. This point pretty much rules them all out. I am all for making new and fun video games, but why not try something new? A space simulator already exist, and it is called Kerbal Space Program. You know how many times I've seen someone say "I want to make a game like [insert game title here] but better"? How many cheap knockoffs of "Minecraft" have you seen over the years? They were never as good as the original. Think up of your own, fun concept.

Seriously, take it from someone who has pretty much wasted several years and dollars on indie game development. Do something fun, original, and do-able in a short amount of time. Set a short goal, can you make a simple and finished video game in say, six weeks? DON'T try to take on KSP or make a cheap knock off of it that's going to take years to make with tons of developers and no experience in doing so. You will fail miserably and I will laugh at you for not listening to me.

[pxi]

There is one thing you absolutely must do.

Ensure the graphics on level 3 are sufficiently tight.

I cannot stress how important this is.

[MAFman]

I think first I need to develop a sense of the purpose of my project. What did the original project brief for Kerbal Space Program, back when HarvesteR had JUST started, look like? I need to develop a project brief so I know for certain what I"m doing.

[MAFman]

Ok, so I need to write a project brief before I go anywhere. Help?? I don't even know what I want to call this thing... I do have more concrete ideas, however...kinda...

[cantab]

If you want people to join your project for free, you'd better have more than just a nice idea. Nice ideas are ten a penny. You need more. Once you can bring one aspect, and a real technical aspect like code or graphics, then you may be able to attract others.

If you're going to employ developers, then do what you like. It's your money. Don't be surprised if you waste it though.