Forum controlled KSP campaign: Space race to the Mun!

[Kosmo-not]

I don\'t think that there should be no cost for salvaged parts. You do need to refill the tanks.

[DonLorenzo]

In RL fuel cost is a fairly small percentage of the cost of a rocket(part). It\'d be more realistic to consider how many uses you\'d get out of an item and charge that amount for a reused part. Ie if a SRB costs 2000 credits, and can be used five times salvaging said SRB would give you 1/5 * 2000 = 400 credits back. Rationale isn\'t that important though

edit: durr i mean 4/5 * 2000 = 1600 credits back ofcourse.

[Guest GroundHOG-2010]

So I\'m thinking the only way I can get mission reward balance right is for the community to help me. If I had a bunch of people fly the missions (successfully) using craft that is as lean as possible and send me their craft then I can see, on average, how much one can expect a mission to cost (and then calculate reward). Only then can I price the reward for the mission successfully.

For example, I have a mission objective of landing on the Mun and returning. I know how much that would cost me. I have my favourite configuration. But a sample of one is hardly a good guide. If I had five samples then I could average that and use that as a rule of thumb.

I shall ponder this some more.

I currently have a rocket that can go to 70,000m for the price of the first mission objective.

[togfox]

So I\'ve been working on the economics and I think I\'ve got a system that will suffice for v1. Here are my plans on the campaign in general.

A turn is 2 days in real time. So every second day you will *email* a craft that can successful meet one of the missions. I currently have 21 missions. You\'ll have diversity to choose from. Each mission has a dollar reward. The first corporation (you represent competing companies) to achieve the mission gets the highest reward. The 2nd corporation to achieve the same mission gets a tiny bit less. By the time the 5th/6th corporation completes the same mission the \'press attention\' is ho-hum so there will be some reward but it\'s a slow slog.

Do we want 2 days to exclude weekends? This means if there is a turn on Friday then the next turn is due not on Tuesday. Or, should the next turn be due on Sunday? How many turns a week do we want?

So every 2nd day I scan your craft to determine cost and tech level used to make sure it is within your limits and use mechjeb to fly the claimed mission. A touch of honesty is required here. I\'m not going to fly every craft on every mission but I\'ll spot-check to see if the mission is feasible with the provided craft. If some bizarre design comes in then I\'ll probably fly that mission closely.

If two corporations fly the same mission on the same turn then they both get the same prize money. This is where the race comes in. You\'ll want to do the missions before other people do and you\'ll want to do it with less parts than your competitor so you can reach cart technology ahead of the field.

At the end of the turn I\'ll post successful missions, corporations names and winnings. This is the equivalent of a press release. I won\'t post craft designs as these should be considered top-secret. I guess there is room here for private barter to sell designs.

Price list is attached in excel format. I\'ll work on making this available in different formats. Prices are same as those listed in-game but I\'ve tweaked the value of a few mods for balance reasons.

Tech levels are published previously (I\'ll start a new clean tidy thread with all this consolidated when we are ready). It will cost $1000 to unlock level 2. It will cost twice that to unlock level 3. Twice that again for level 4 (ie $1000, $2000, $4000, $8000, $16,000). I\'m not sure if this is going to be too hard or too easy. Version 1 is about balance.

If you don\'t have enough money to complete a new mission then you can \'replay\' a mission you\'ve already done (assuming you have the cash). You submit no file and you get the lowest prize money available for that mission. Its like taking on a commercial contract for an unknown nation who won\'t pay top dollar but they will re-imburse you for your efforts. You can repeat any mission again for the lowest reward but you can do it with a more efficient craft thereby improving your margin.

I\'ll post up missions soon and I\'m working on tools that can scan a craft file and extract the parts and cost of that craft into a simple to read text file. I fear I\'ll be swamped without this tool.

See the attachment and let me know if we\'re on the right track.

[UmbralRaptor]

Ooh, sounds like fun.

Turns on consistent days of the week (eg: Mon/Wed/Fri or Tues/Thurs/Sat) might well be simpler. I suspect that we\'ll need to discuss who has what days open. Then again, one could design ships for various missions/budgets beforehand, meaning that submissions will be relatively quick/easy. I\'m partial to 2-3 turns per week.

Rules questions: How will skipping ahead/going back for missions be handled? Eg: if the first person to do an orbital flight does this before anyone has achieved an ICBM, do they get credit for both? Would the 'lesser' achievement remain at full value or be diminished? If I have the budget, can I submit multiple flights (with the same, or varying craft and/or objectives)? Is every item in a level of the tech tree individually researched, or are they done as a group? How will part recovery be handled? (Do they need to survive impact, or is it enough to parachute them down? If the former, will parachutes better than the Mk 16 be available?)

A balance suggestion: the tricoupler should probably be a lower level unlock (or have a substantially cheaper research cost) than the radial decoupler. Otherwise, there is sadly little reason to use it with current stock part balance.

[togfox]

I like the 2/3 turns per week on fixed days. Makes it easy for everyone and doesn\'t consume your week.

You can claim any mission you like - or multiple missions with a single craft. You would get the full reward for both missions, or whatever you would get if you\'d done them singly. You only get one craft per turn. You need to consider the missions available; the missions within your grasp; the mission payments and glory; and what your competitors might be aiming for next. You get one craft and so do your rivals. You\'ll have to think strategically.

Research is done as a group (to keep it simple). Any part that ends up on the ground (or water) intact or with a chute (allowances made for explosions that shouldn\'t) will have a % of it\'s value returned. The chute is worth more money than some parts are worth. You\'ll have to factor in drag, weight and points to attach chutes if this is your strategy. Stock parachutes only.

Comments on balance welcome and we\'ll see what comes out in the wash.

[DonLorenzo]

About the multiple missions per turn thing,

Do you mean we can achieve multiple objectives in one flight? Or that we can launch that turn\'s craft multiple times for different missions? In case of the latter, I assume one would need to have the funding to purchase these multiple craft instead of just the one?

Will take a look at that excel in a bit

Cheers

[Guest GroundHOG-2010]

I like the 2/3 turns per week on fixed days. Makes it easy for everyone and doesn\'t consume your week.

You can claim any mission you like - or multiple missions with a single craft. You would get the full reward for both missions, or whatever you would get if you\'d done them singly. You only get one craft per turn. You need to consider the missions available; the missions within your grasp; the mission payments and glory; and what your competitors might be aiming for next. You get one craft and so do your rivals. You\'ll have to think strategically.

Research is done as a group (to keep it simple). Any part that ends up on the ground (or water) intact or with a chute (allowances made for explosions that shouldn\'t) will have a % of it\'s value returned. The chute is worth more money than some parts are worth. You\'ll have to factor in drag, weight and points to attach chutes if this is your strategy. Stock parachutes only.

Comments on balance welcome and we\'ll see what comes out in the wash.

When will the campaign start?

[Alchemist]

I like this idea!

I think, we must figure some more rules on manned(+ZO2) vs unmanned(+satrelay)

*no penalty for losing remote capsule (except for recovery cost)

*some prestige missions must be manned

*for some achievements there could be unmanned version, that has lower reward, doesn\'t affect reward for manned version and is reduced to minimal reward if manned mission was done before

*however many missions can be equally performed both ways and unmanned should be cheaper

[UmbralRaptor]

About the multiple missions per turn thing,

Do you mean we can achieve multiple objectives in one flight? Or that we can launch that turn\'s craft multiple times for different missions? In case of the latter, I assume one would need to have the funding to purchase these multiple craft instead of just the one?

Will take a look at that excel in a bit

Cheers

Additionally, will some objectives be mutually exclusive? Perhaps by category? For example, a suborbital mission that achieves 80 km altitude and 1200 km ground distance cannot also take 50 km altitude and 600 km ground distance. Similarly, an orbital mission is disqualified from all suborbital range/distance objectives. That said, there could be a lot of mixing and matching of orbital objectives, as they do not overlap so thoroughly. eg: a ship might be able to easily achieve a 200 km retrograde orbit or a kerbostationary orbit, but have difficulty doing both in a single mission.

As for the excel file, does this mean that we should ignore the cost of mechjeb in the VAB and always treat it as free?

[Alchemist]

With achievements, that cover multiple levels in a line the system could be this:

If the included achievement wasn\'t claimed before, the player claims it and gets a slightly reduced reward (in addition to the top achievement reward)

For already claimed achievements the reduced reward is given only if it\'s the top achievement of the current flight, so that each orbital mission doesn\'t give suborbital altitude and distance rewards.

[DonLorenzo]

I think 1 mission, 1 craft per turn is sensible. Go for the best mission you can achieve with your funds and tech at that point, period.

If it turns out you can leapfrog over lots, decide whether or not that\'s interesting financially. If too large \'jumps\' are possible that\'s something to consider in subsequent goals/rewards balancing.

[togfox]

One mission + one craft per turn seems the easiest to manage. I\'m thinking turns end Tuesdays and Sundays.

Here is my current set of missions

Reach an altitude of 10,000m and descend safely

Reach an altitude of 16,500m | 35,000m | 70,000m | 11,400,000m and descend safely

Establish Kerbin orbit and descend

Establish Kerbin orbit with RCS and fuel onboard (for rendevous)

Establish Kerbin orbit and descend at 90 degree inclination and descend

Insert any object (satellite) into Kerbin orbit and land pilots safely

Insert Powersat into Kerbin orbit (requires mod)

Insert Powersat into Keo-Stationary orbit (requires mod)

Travel 350km horizontally east from KSP (intercontinental travel)

Travel 1,400km east and land safely

Orbit Mun and return

Insert any object into Mun orbit and return

Insert a powersat object into Mun orbit and return (requires mod)

Install a ZO2 mining station on Mun and return (requires mandatory mod)

Land on Mun and return

Land rover on Mun and return (requires mod)

Set a remote-controlled craft on an escape trajectory to explore strange new worlds, new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no one has gone before! (requires mod)

Missions can be repeated if there is financial gain. The most glory goes to those few who do the mission first. All participants can do all the missions so if you join the party late - you can still participate.

I\'ll start the real and official thread soon (which forum is best?) where all this information is consolidated.

[DonLorenzo]

Sounds good, a manageable pace I think

I think the \'challenges\' forum will be a good place

edit: look what got born tonight http://kerbalspaceprogram.com/forum/index.php?board=42.0 maybe this is a good board instead

[SmiteZero]

If it\'s not to late, I think Zoxygen still needs some balancing/parts (coming pretty soon). Seems to be complaints about the size that the needed life support adds currently.

[DonLorenzo]

Also about the Zoxygen system, will it be required for in-atmo only flight? I\'m in favor of ruling YES, because it adds quite a bit of mass and makes everything just a tad harder

[Jamini]

Also about the Zoxygen system, will it be required for in-atmo only flight? I\'m in favor of ruling YES, because it adds quite a bit of mass and makes everything just a tad harder

I think that the results and designs would be more interesting if the participant was left to choose. Especially if they mistook how high a particular ship might fly and did not bring a Zoxygen system.

[togfox]

I\'d like to say Zoxygen is not required for atmo flight but this makes my administration much harder as I will not only have to scan craft for legitimate parts but I will also need to somehow decide if a craft is designed for space flight or not.

So, sorry to say, unless I have some clever tools to help me, I\'ll have to insist that every flight has a ZO2 main module. Think of it as Kerbals, in their infinite wisdom, believe that atmosphere stops at 1000m.

[togfox]

Campaign has started.

Challenge forum.

http://184.154.141.114/~kerbalsp/forum/index.php?topic=10408.msg156852#msg156852

If a mod see\'s this, please lock this thread. kthxbai.

[Zutha]

Count me in!!!

Just please give enough notice for the start

Hint hint devs.... we want missions next

[togfox]

Read my last post (not this one) - my previous one.