Leveling Up Kerbals -- The Training Program

[Geschosskopf]

UPDATED 28 JULY 2015

How do you level up your Kerbals efficiently? I've been giving this matter some thought and here's what I've come up with.

1. Level Limits

Pilots and Engineers currently max out what they can do in the game at level 3. They can progress to level 5 but that just means you have to pay them more for the same work . Scientists max out in effect at 4th 5th level. Maybe someday the other classes will have more benefits at higher levels but for now, this is all we need to worry about.

2. Amount of KXP

Getting to level 3 requires 16 KXP, and it's 32 for level 4. Because KXP per planet doesn't stack (Kerbals only earn up to the highest single value for the planet), the most KXP a Kerbal can earn within the Kerbin system is 13: 2 for orbiting Kerbin, 5 for planting a flag on Mun, and 6 for planting a flag on Minmus. This will only get them to level 2, although they don't need much more for level 3. In fact, if they just poke their heads out of Kerbin's SOI and come right back, they'll get another 6 KXP, which will do the trick.

3. Earning KXP

The main catch with KXP seems to be that KXP earned during a mission only takes effect after the Kerbal is recovered on Kerbin. Apparently they have to be debriefed. Which I suppose is necessary to prevent sending rookies to Laythe and have them arrive there as level 4 (2 orbit Kerbin, 6 orbit Kerbol, 9 orbit Jool, 20 plant flag on Laythe).

4. Benefits of KXP

I don't find Pilot experience that at all useful. Even a rookie pilot can use SAS, which is pretty much all I pay them for. I suppose the ability to hold the ship pointing various directions is technically useful but I've never had that ability before 0.90 and have been flying along just fine without it. So I would say you don't need to worry about leveling up pilots at all. In fact, you shouldn't recruit any. You get 2 to start with, both of which become superfluous the moment you have the OKTO core, and that will almost certainly be long before you land on Mun the 1st time. So send your scientist to Mun with a probe core so you can get more science for the trip, instead of having to build a 2-seat rocket with low-tech parts.

It's very different with Engineers and Scientists. All the Engineer abilities are useful, almost essential for mission safety, and the one mostly to be used (repairing wheels) is the last trick they learn, so there's a real incentive to get them to level 3 ASAP.

And the science point buff of the Scientist only becomes significant at higher levels, but by then he's going to places with high location multipliers so it's of real benefit then. Also, a maxed-out Scientist in a Mobile Lab can transmit 75% of the return value of any experiment, which could be useful at times. So again, it seems desirable to get the Scientists leveled up as much as possible.

(NEW) Scientists fall somewhere between pilots and engineers in usefulness. They're useful, in a limited way, right up until the tech tree ends, at which point they become nearly redundant. They're only continuing practical value after that is in that you can get a small amount of extra cash out of them by using a strategy that converts most of your now-unnecessary science points to funds.

There is thus little reason to have more than the 1 scientist you start with, and no real incentive to waste fuel leveling him up. The main benefit of a scientist, which all 0-level rookies can do, is resetting Goo and Material experiments. So now you can build a biome-hopper with just 1 of each for a smaller, cheaper ship, and no longer need to waste time or fuel returning to a Mobile Processing Lab to reset these experiments. This easily enables totally pillaging Minmus a couple mission with small, cheap landers, and the points from that will amount to about 1/2 of the tech tree's total value. Then you can do the same on Mun in 1 or 2 trips with a slightly more expensive ship and be done with the whole thing, and also any further need for scientists.

Otherwise, scientists also let you get a little more science per mission but at low levels, their buffs to earned science points are not large enough to make any real difference except on the 1st couple tiers of the tech tree where nodes are cheap. Beyond that, having a scientist on the mission or not will not make or break being able to unlock 1 more node afterwards.

In 1.x, scientists can now also generate extra science points by processing data in the Mobile Processing Lab. However, at low levels, the processing takes the better part of a year and then only results in far less science than you could have gotten in far less time doing conventional science return missions. With a couple of low-level scientists you are, in effect, trading money (in the form of savings from NOT doing the conventional missions) for large amounts of elapsed game time. If you try to speed the processing up, you waste the money you would otherwise save because you have to hire/rescue a bunch more scientists, send them on missions to level them up, and then build a big lab complex for them to work in. And then, when all that science does come in and unlocks the rest of the tech tree, you now have a bunch of useless scientists and a big useless lab complex. So I consider the feature, in its current form, a complete waste of your time and money, especially given the ability of 0-level scientists to reset experiments. (NEW)

5. Strategy for Leveling Up

If the goal is to send Engineers and Scientits of at least level 3 on all interplanetary trips, then there's no avoiding having to do a training missions beforehand. The cheapest way I can see to do this is:

1. Orbit Kerbin (2 points)
   
2. Orbit Mun (3 points)
   
3. Plant flag on Minmus (6 points)
   
4. Briefly escape Kerbin's SOI (6 points)
   
5. Land back on Kerbin (0 points but all the others take effect)
   

Everybody who goes on such a trip would get 17 KXP, enough for level 3. They could get 2 more points for planting flags on Mun but that's a fair-sized chunk of delta-V to land, plus play time, and take off there and it won't get them another level. So, it seems that you could make a big lander with however many seats desired and enough delta-V for such a trip, and get bunches of Kerbals up to level 3 fairly easily this way.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Geschosskopf

[Bill Phil]

Thanks for the info. I'll be taking adv- * catches himself* using that neat setup.

[WanderingKid]

Much obliged for the thoughts, Geschosskopf. I'd been wondering about this, and the max/planet makes sense. I was sending all my Kerbals on a flight in Atmo, then an orbit, and was wondering where that XP point went (I'd thought it was best/mission added up).

This seems reasonable. Not simple in some cases (dropping out of, and back into, Kerbin SOI) but reasonable. I'll have to see what I can do with this.

[MKI]

Excellent post that taught me a lot about the KXP that is pretty much essential to getting the most out of our kerbals. I still see expansions to this whole Kerbal Experience feature in the near future. The main problem to me is the Engineer class is still not as useful as the other 2. Quickloads, and quick saves can pretty much eliminate any problems besides a very SELECT situations.

But I can see myself sending some recruits on a mission to Minimus to prep them for a long distance mission to a farther place. Mainly Scientists, and an Engineer for emergencies. Throw in the new contracts to setup bases and I plan to colonize large parts of the System for funds and fun ;D

[SmashBrown]

Nice, i have only been using Jeb so far in career so this is great to know. Good post.

[Daid]

1. Level Limits

Scientists max out in effect at 4th level.

According to the FAQ/Update post. Yes. According to the data files, no.

name = VesselScienceReturn
modifiers = 1.05, 1.1, 1.15, 1.2, 1.25

[Tw1]

Nice breakdown. It is a pity it's just place based, setting up a station for training kerbals could have been a cool mechanism. Maybe someone with more orbit smarts could work out a Mun-Minmus-edge of SOI cycler.

I do like that Kerbals who haven't left the kerbin SOI can't get that much experience- it saves the full five stars for veterans.

[Geschosskopf]

I was sending all my Kerbals on a flight in Atmo, then an orbit, and was wondering where that XP point went (I'd thought it was best/mission added up).

Yeah, Kerbin is pretty sterile when it comes to KXP. No matter how many visual survey missions and suborbital part tests a Kerbal does there, he will only ever get 1 point, which isn't enough even to get to level 1. So, you get no benefits/abilities from the Kerbal at all until you at least have him orbit Kerbin.

The main problem to me is the Engineer class is still not as useful as the other 2. Quickloads, and quick saves can pretty much eliminate any problems besides a very SELECT situations.

Funny, I find Pilots pretty much useless. Once you have a probe core that can do SAS, you can slap that on a rocket with a pod so anybody can fly it. I have no need of the ability of pilots (and probe cores) to hold specific directions for doing burns. The only benefit I see to that is simply saving me some time and effort. Instead of having to orient the ship manually, I can just click a button, same as using MJ's SmartASS function.

Engineers, OTOH, I find quite useful. The ability to repack chutes is really nice for pillaging Duna, especially now that it's got multiple biomes. You have a reuseable lander that cycles between the ground and a Mobile Lab in orbit, and you can save a fair amount of fuel for the operation by using chutes during all the landings. But that means you have to have somebody to repack them. And you can't do that with F5/F9 .

According to the FAQ/Update post. Yes. According to the data files, no.

name = VesselScienceReturn
modifiers = 1.05, 1.1, 1.15, 1.2, 1.25

That's true. However, all the sources say they max out at 4th. I don't know yet from personal experience but I guess I'll find out someday.

Nice breakdown. It is a pity it's just place based, setting up a station for training kerbals could have been a cool mechanism. Maybe someone with more orbit smarts could work out a Mun-Minmus-edge of SOI cycler.

I do like that Kerbals who haven't left the kerbin SOI can't get that much experience- it saves the full five stars for veterans.

Yeah, there are some things about the system you can't reconcile with each other. Why does the KXP award for other planets scale with distance? Isn't landing on Mun and Minmus pretty much the same as landing on most other bodies in the system? And the vast bulk of an interplanetary trip is twiddling your thumbs for months on end waiting for the next burn. OK, you can assume that during all this time, the Kedrbals are strapped down to a "Clockwork Orange" machine being force-fed training videos and brainwashing chemicals (which is how I really do things in my space program ), but you can do that in a station orbiting Kerbin as well .

But anyway, it seems that you could probably make a training ship for the recruit leveling tour fairly easily. Starting from LKO, you'd need what, about 2000-2500m/s for the whole trip? I dunno. I'd give it 3500 to start with and then tweak up or down from there. Who cares if you strand them all in Kerbol orbit? They're just recruits anyway, and they don't hurt your rep unless they die .

[nremies1]

It's very odd to me that no experience is awarded for EVA. I guess the obvious answer is that there's no difference in an EVA over Kerbin as opposed to the Mun and so it's something you'd award XP for exactly once no matter where in the universe it was done. But still...it feels like a thing that should be logged.

[Rolanvorxariat]

Thanks, I'll be doing this. unfortunately, since before Beta there was no KXP, so all my best kerbals, including the original three and some of my test pilots, are all level zero. currently, the only one who has any KXP is jeb (1XP) who I sent on a visual survey mission after beta. So now, I'm just ferrying the kerbals i have chosen for mt manned duna mission and my future jool exploration missions to my space station, the IKSRS, and I'm FINALLY building that mun base that i didn't build because i was laz-No, no budget cuts. Yeah budget cuts. maybe a minmus free-return trajectory flight too. Hmm...

[Bill Phil]

What about flying on Kerbin? Plus 1 XP for Kerbin.

[Geschosskopf]

What about flying on Kerbin? Plus 1 XP for Kerbin.

For any planet, the amount of KXP 1 Kerbal can acquire this is equal to the value of the highest-scoring single event there. So for Kerbin, you can fly there for 1 point and you can (EDIT) orbit there for 2 points (there's also fly-by but that'll never happen). So, the cap for Kerbin is 2, which you can get by going to orbit. If you fly before you go to orbit, you only get 1 more point for a total of 2 because that's the cap there.

Because of this, there's no real KXP value in flying on Kerbin. You need 2 points to reach level 1 and you can't get that without going to orbit.

I bet Squad originally thought about having some KXP based on number of missions, considering the game actually tracks number of missions. But that counter tracks even deploying just a capsule and recovering it, so obvious exploit there. And even if a mission was defined as having to leave the ground, you could still milk that by dropping pods from launch clamps over and over.

Oh well, the KXP system's not perfect but it's not that bad, either, and we can certainly arrange things to our benefit.

[Bill Phil]

Hmm... I got more than 2 from Kerbin.

[Geschosskopf]

Hmm... I got more than 2 from Kerbin.

Very interesting. I certainly have not, with Jeb doing all sorts of missions and never getting more than 1 point until he got to orbit, and then no more than those 2 points until he went elsewhere. What did you do?

[merendel]

But anyway, it seems that you could probably make a training ship for the recruit leveling tour fairly easily. Starting from LKO, you'd need what, about 2000-2500m/s for the whole trip? I dunno. I'd give it 3500 to start with and then tweak up or down from there. Who cares if you strand them all in Kerbol orbit? They're just recruits anyway, and they don't hurt your rep unless they die .

3500 would probably let you be overagressive on the transfers. I figure about 1500 to get to minmus, land and take off agian. a couple hundred should be enough to kick you out of minmus low orbit on an escape from kerbin trajectory, just time it so you are going prograde/radialout in relation to kerbins orbit and just skim the SOI, you'll probaly fall back in to the SOI without interfearance. Try to tweek orbit for mun intercept, burn just enough fuel ot achieve orbit instead of flyby and turn back around and head to kerbin. 2k would be tight but might be possible 2500 should be relitively safe. probably wouldnt be too difficult to make a flying tourbus out of hitchhikers, a command pod, some 2.5 fuel tanks and a poodle. Could have a whole kerbal Space camp guided tour to get a dozen kerbals experience in a single trip.

[Bloody_looser]

Actually, engineers gain ability to repair wheels at level 2.

[monophonic]

Hmm... I got more than 2 from Kerbin.

Are you sure hadn't accidentally just momentarily skimmed into Mun or Minmus SOI? Even a mere seconds long visit might count as a flyby as far as the programming logic cares.

[Spatzimaus]

Funny, I find Pilots pretty much useless. Once you have a probe core that can do SAS, you can slap that on a rocket with a pod so anybody can fly it.

This. All of my craft include a small probe core, solely so that I can control it when the astronaut EVA's. You'll be using the tiny, squashed octo core right around the time you get your first level 3 Kerbonaut, so Pilot skills become useless.

Although honestly, I'd put the Scientists in the "useless" category as well. I play on Hard, and I have more science points than I know what to do with at any given time. The bottleneck for me is one of funds; it's really hard to save up the 1M + 6M roots needed to upgrade the R&D department twice, when you're barely making a profit on normal launches. When I'd managed to save up the 1M needed to break the 100-point barrier, I had about 1500 research points waiting to purchase the locked techs. I'm now parked at the 500-point barrier, and by the time I can break that I'll have tens of thousands of points banked.

To be useful, the Scientists should give some in-mission benefit instead of just a post-mission reward boost. But that's a discussion for another thread.

Why does the KXP award for other planets scale with distance? Isn't landing on Mun and Minmus pretty much the same as landing on most other bodies in the system?

The landing on Eeloo might not be any tougher than a landing on Mun, but getting there isn't trivial, and getting BACK is a lot tougher. You can make a trip to Mun and back without too much effort, especially once you onlock more advanced parts, but anything that requires you to leave the SOI is another thing entirely.

The strange part of that scaling is that it creates what I'll call a "substitution" issue. That is, imagine you're in the latter parts of a career, with Jeb and company up to level 5 from their various adventures. They got this way by hitting the various low-value planets/moons in order. You then hire a newbie, because you'd rather not strand one of your senior folks on some distant moon. Sure, you can do the same progression Jeb went through, and send that new guy to Mun, Minmus, Duna, etc... or you can bring them along as cargo on a single round trip to Laythe. Poof, instant veteran! At that point there's no reason to use the long-time kerbonaut for anything.

----------------

As to the original post, I've done this sort of thing already. One of today's contracts involved creating a 5-man base on Mun, with only the bare minimum of parts (no wheels, no lab, no specific science gear). So, I took my light SSTO spaceplane, replaced its 3-ton probe+cargo bay with a 2-ton crew pod, stuck some landing legs/antenna/docking port on it, and sent it to Mun (after refueling in LKO). Not only did this complete a very lucrative contract for me, it also let me train five rookie crewmen up to level 2. I can do the same again later, going to Minmus with a quick detour outside the SOI, and that'll put them all at level 3.

[KerikBalm]

Also, a maxed-out Scientist in a Mobile Lab can transmit 75% of the return value of any experiment, which could be useful at times. So again, it seems desirable to get the Scientists leveled up as much as possible.

How did you get this number? Source?

From everything I've read, its only returned science, not transmitted (indeed, I see no effect on transmitted data, but haven't tried with the lab, maybe I wasn't looking carefully enough). And then the effect is only 20% (or 25% according to game files, which I am more inclined to believe).

They nerfed the mobile lab to a 15% boost. Assuming a lvl 5 scientist can boost transmission as well, then a mat bay transmission efficiency should be either:

20% *(1+.15+.25) = 28% transmission efficiency, or 20% * 1.15 * 1.25 = 28.75% transmission efficiency.

*IF* the scientist boost works on transmissions, *AND IF* it works differently from the lab boost (+25 percentage points, not a 1.25x modifier), *AND IF* it is applied first, then we may get (20%+25%) * 1.15 = 51.75% return value.

That is A LOT of "IF"s and the number is still far smaller than yours. Even *IF* the lab nerf was undone, and all the other "IF"s were still valid, we'd get to 67.5 for the mat bay.

I find the hold prograde to be useful, especially for spaceplanes as they ascend through the atmosphere (after jets have been cut, and the rockets fired). Normally I have to keep correcting to prograde to minimize drag, but its nice to have that happen automatically.

I've also tried using hold retrograde for some landings, that works quite nice too.

Orient towards the maneuver node is also useful for big ungainly ships, when you can't see the marker on the navball and are a bit confused exactly which way you should be turning.

As for my training program, SSTO flights, of course. With the contract for making a station in Mun orbit, I do crew changes to let multiple kerbals plant a flag and harvest science from biomes.

When strapped for cash but not science, I suppose the scientists can help your situation if you run the patents liscenscing strategy.

[Aragosnat]

So for Kerbin, you can fly there for 1 point and you can (EDIT) orbit there for 2 points (there's also fly-by but that'll never happen).

Think yer right on the fly-by.But, would it be possable to build rocket that leave Kerbin's SOI without making an orbit and then getting an impact on Kerbin again without making an orbit. Would building a craft like that work to get the fly-by?

I think it also gives modders a way to set up launch bases on other planets (or maybe even Squad). =^.^=

[shaw]

There are also some more, hidden capabilities in the KSP code.

EnginePower

FuelUsage

HeatProduction

MaxThrottle

I haven't tried yet if they work, but probably they should be added to classes in a similar way as PartScienceReturn and VesselScienceReturn.

[Rakaydos]

There are also some more, hidden capabilities in the KSP code.

EnginePower

FuelUsage

HeatProduction

MaxThrottle

I haven't tried yet if they work, but probably they should be added to classes in a similar way as PartScienceReturn and VesselScienceReturn.

Those were the first draft of the class abilities, before a public outcry forced them to strip out anything that modified the performance of an otherwise sharable vessel. "This craft can land on Eeloo, but only if you have a level 5 engineer and a level 3 pilot."

[eddiew]

Those were the first draft of the class abilities, before a public outcry forced them to strip out anything that modified the performance of an otherwise sharable vessel. "This craft can land on Eeloo, but only if you have a level 5 engineer and a level 3 pilot."

...I would have been OK with that...

OP: thanks, good info thread, shall use

[SkyRender]

Hm. Depending on the value of a Mun flyby, you could possibly bypass going into Munar orbit entirely and get exactly 16xp from Kerbin orbit, Mun flyby, Minmus flag-planting, and a brief solar jaunt. This calls for science! (By which I mean testing, of course.)

Post-testing edit: It works! I sent Bill up on a mission with Jeb and Bob to Minmus and solar orbit after, with a small (and entirely unnecessary) gravity assist off the Mun on the way. Upon their return, Bill had earned 16 exp (Jeb and Bob had already been on a mission to the Mun before that, so they were assured their level up). So all you need to get a Kerbal from starter to level 3 is a quick fly-by of the Mun, a flag-planting on Minmus, and a short jaunt out to the sun.

Edited December 24, 2014 by SkyRender

[Rolanvorxariat]

How much KXP do you get for landing on the mun?

Does anyone have a KXP chart?