Campaign: forum controlled KSP campaign: Space race to the Mun!!

[DonLorenzo]

I\'d suggest something like 35K or a provision that there can\'t be powered flight after the jettison

[RulerOfNothing]

Actually I think I\'ll have to abandon my efforts in this campaign, as I seem to be having problems finding enough time to properly design my spacecraft. Sorry about that.

[togfox]

Understood Ruler. You can still participate and forget the \'race\' side of things. Just submit a turn whenever you can and just enjoy it that way.

Turn closed. Processing now. It seems the campaign is becoming far more strategic as ppl decide to invest in tech or to shoot for 'firsts'. I hope this is challenging and a challenge you\'re enjoying!! Some of you are reflying old missions to make some money. This is an intended part of the campaign as tech levels become more expensive. If this is an aspect people don\'t enjoy then the cost of research should be re-evaluated. Some members simply aren\'t making money on their craft. This is to be expected as well. For the missions that have been benchmarked, the profit margins are advertised in the first post. Please check that if you\'re flying an \'old\' mission and make sure your craft compares to the rest of the field. If it doesn\'t, then have fun learning how to make it more efficient.

I\'m working out the \'cash flow\' table now ...

[togfox]

[pre]

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| Player | Balance | Spent | Income | NewBalance | Turn | Claimed | Profit |

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| Alchemist | 9311 | 4000 | 0 | 5311 | 4 | Techlevel 3 | -4000 |

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| Alchemist | 5311 | 4925 | 7983 | 8369 | 4 | Polar orbit | 3058 |

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| Awaras | 9244 | 7272 | 8473 | 10445 | 4 | Equitorial orbit | 1201 |

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| CrowZone | 10291 | 3000 | 0 | 7291 | 4 | Techlevel 1 + 2 | -3000 |

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| CrowZone | 7291 | 5522 | 7264 | 9033 | 4 | 350km east | 1742 |

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| DonLorenzo | 9958 | 4000 | 0 | 5958 | 4 | Techlevel 3 | -4000 |

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| DonLorenzo | 5958 | 4925 | 8473 | 9506 | 4 | Equitorial orbit | 3548 |

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| pit_muc | 8720 | 4000 | 0 | 4720 | 4 | Techlevel 3 | -4000 |

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| pit_muc | 4720 | 4672 | 7264 | 7312 | 4 | 350km east | 2592 |

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| Sjwt | 9980 | 4000 | 0 | 5980 | 4 | Techlevel 3 | -4000 |

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| Sjwt | 5980 | 5122 | 8473 | 9331 | 4 | Equitorial orbit | 3351 |

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| STCatto | 8045 | 8747 | 7983 | 7281 | 4 | Polar orbit | -764 |

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| UmbralRaptor | 8536 | 6522 | 8473 | 10487 | 4 | Equitorial orbit | 1951 |

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[/pre]

If you ever find yourself in a position where you are losing money then I suggest you re-fly an old mission with a more efficient craft. Because you\'re unlocking tech over time, you should be able to do early missions far cheaper than you did the first time. This is a dimension of the campaign that should not be ignored. 'Firsts' are important, but so is cash flow! Look at who else did your mission and see how much their craft cost. If you can fly the mission again, for cheaper, and improve your margin then that\'s an option for corporations that have invested in R&D and need to recoup some cash.

I this is proving challenging without being too hard.

[sjwt]

[pre]

This is a dimension of the campaign that should not be ignored. 'Firsts' are important, but so is cash flow!

The only other way to make money is hope someone else is doing the same first mission as you but spending much more on their craft.

A quick look at the table on how much everyone spent, and you can get a good idea of what they used, I relay do think you need to increase the pay out for being first, and increase the per turn drop off, else we will all end up doing the same mission, the 16.5k or any other mission that someone spend too high a budget on.

Also not sure why, but STCatto seems to be down $2,200 from last round.

[DonLorenzo]

May I suggest a mission that pays out (extra) depending on the mass you leave in orbit? That\'d be interesting.

Also, in the spirit of full disclosure and cooperation (up to a point) here are the craft I used for the first three turns. I suppose you\'ll all have built very similar ones, but who knows perhaps its fun to see.

[togfox]

I incorrectly costed STCatto in turn 3. We emailed about this. STCatto - check the cost of your craft with others. Enjoy the challenge of making leaner craft. If you like, you can post your craft here and ask other corporations to make suggestions on efficiency.

I\'ll think about how to do the \'put mass in orbit\' mission and that might be available for turn 6.

Turn 5 will close Saturday night in the USA.

[DonLorenzo]

If you ever find yourself in a position where you are losing money then I suggest you re-fly an old mission with a more efficient craft. Because you\'re unlocking tech over time, you should be able to do early missions far cheaper than you did the first time. This is a dimension of the campaign that should not be ignored. 'Firsts' are important, but so is cash flow! Look at who else did your mission and see how much their craft cost. If you can fly the mission again, for cheaper, and improve your margin then that\'s an option for corporations that have invested in R&D and need to recoup some cash.

I this is proving challenging without being too hard.

I think it\'s time to remove the 16,5 and 35km altitude missions now then. or at least have a 1x cap on them so newer people might still join if they so desire

[sjwt]

I think it\'s time to remove the 16,5 and 35km altitude missions now then. or at least have a 1x cap on them so newer people might still join if they so desire

Indeed, unless the plan is to have us repeat the 16.5k mission over and over until one of us can than afford to put a Kerbal on the Mun!

[STCat]

Hmmm ... Let\'s say you can jettison zo2 on descent below 70000.

ok, consindering lack-of-Zoxygen altitude as ~70k, and possibility to live it up on descends FROM above - is it so necessery to use ZOMain at low-alt missions?

[Alchemist]

Payload mass? interesting idea! Especially because until we we get TL4 (and remote pod) we\'re bound to LKO - without that panels (and they are TL5 )we can\'t take so much ZO2 for a manned munar orbit or slingshot.

BTW, what rules will be applied to remote controlled missions? Something like manual control allowed only if we have direct contact with KSC? Or any relays allowed?

[togfox]

Anyone repeating the 16,000 meter mission will have diminishing returns until you hit the lowest paygrade at $7300. This is intentional because the mission difficulty\'s are evenly spaced and sometimes you might have to burn a few turns collecting cash for new techs and new ships. Burn too many turns and you\'ll be the last on the Mun.

You have to always carry a ZO2 module on ascent. Kerbals aren\'t real clever and on the way up they don\'t really know where the atmosphere stops. On the way down, they can work out it\'s at 70,000m and can jettison below this height. Frankly, not sure why one would bother but someone might find a reason.

How should we work out the \'most mass\' missions and does that even make sense (not that it has to make sense!). The in-game costs and mass don\'t have any real relationship so I\'m worried this could be \'gamed\'. If we can design a mission that is fair then lets do it.

Relay\'s are a problem. We could go into sharing persistence files and using each others satellites but that is really moving away from the campaign idea and taking people down a path that wasn\'t in the original Terms and Conditions. It might be best to remove those missions.

[sjwt]

Anyone repeating the 16,000 meter mission will have diminishing returns until you hit the lowest paygrade at $7300.

---

How should we work out the \'most mass\' missions and does that even make sense (not that it has to make sense!). The in-game costs and mass don\'t have any real relationship so I\'m worried this could be \'gamed\'. If we can design a mission that is fair then lets do it.

---

Relay\'s are a problem. We could go into sharing persistence files and using each others satellites but that is really moving away from the campaign idea and taking people down a path that wasn\'t in the original Terms and Conditions. It might be best to remove those missions.

Below is the payout for 16.5k using tech level 1 at a return of 7300, VS the average cost of the current rounds missions, as you can see, we would be better off still doing 16.5, and that\'s before the current mission payouts drop too much and not even using better tech!

16.5k 2578

Orbit 2513

Polar 1147

350K-E 2167

Until we get to power sat missions, the cost of a mission wont go up enough to justify doing a new mission on round 2, unless someone throws extra stuff on a round 1 mission to game it (Which I don\'t plan on doing)

I Suggest you require 4 Power-sats in orbit around Kerbin before sending Unnamed to the Mun, and that 4 Must be in orbit around the Mun before landing an Unnamed on the Mun, remember they don\'t have to be launched in separate missions, but I would suggest the payouts not be linked ie treat carrying two as a different mission to carrying 1.

With 4 around a SOI you can than just assumed they have been well placed and that the mission will run with out a radio blackout. No need to share a file, you can just set up four and four up at your end and no issues.

[UmbralRaptor]

Hrm. Looks like with TL3, I can do the 16.5 km mission and make at least ¤2880. Baring help from someone spending substantially more than me, I don\'t foresee making more than ¤1838 deploying a payload to LKO.

[togfox]

Factoring in diminishing returns, the $2880 might become ~$2500 but you\'ll still be ahead.

If you\'ve unlocked tech then you can do the $16.5km mission a lot leaner than the earlier turns meaning you can increase your profit and essentially recoup your R&D investment.

Decisions, decisions ...

[sjwt]

Factoring in diminishing returns, the $2880 might become ~$2500 but you\'ll still be ahead.

Decisions, decisions ...

I was going of the stated minimun return, the point is you need to move away from a return that is only based on the cost of the ship, you need to factor in at lest a difficulty level or something else, otherwise no second round mission will make much more profit than the 16.5k mission until we launch powersats(at lest 6 missions away) or someone just adds and extra 10 boosters for no reason to their ship..

[Alchemist]

The problem with PowerSat is that a craft to put one in KSO costs (including that 2500 for the satellite) twice less than the tech level 5. Okay, that was unmanned craft with insufficient fuel to deorbit (but return is not necessary for unmanned pod, is it?), but still it got there without losing direct contact to KSC. Some already flown crafts cost more.

BTW, will 'Insert any object into Mun orbit' be awarded for putting entire unmanned craft there? ;D

Difficulty level? Maybe at least account the necessary delta V. Because for some missions it\'s definetely in completely different order than the rewards:

16.5 km < 35 km < 70 km <350 km east < 1400 km east <= 70 km equatorial orbit < 70 km polar orbit

[sjwt]

Turn 5 is in,

am I the only one who adds as the final note in his emails \'The crew will survive\' as if its not a given with the tight the fuel budgets? <G>

[togfox]

Unmanned craft don\'t need to return and they don\'t need Zoxygen.

A manned flight needs to jettison something into orbit then land for an award. An unmanned craft IS the object in orbit so there is nothing to jettison.

[sjwt]

Have you had a though about the Sat missons and unmaned craft?

I would consider a requirement of three Sats minimum around Kerbin before a mission can be flown to the Moon, and 3 around the moon before a landing can be done to remove any chance of radio black out.. 4 would guarantee that the Sats don\'t have to be placed perfect, then you don\'t have share save files and you know that their will be no bad luck communication drop outs.

[Alchemist]

Satellites in Munar orbit aren\'t so necessary for operations on the Kerbin faced side. You just won\'t be able to perform any orbit corrections while behind the Mun

[Crowzone]

Turn posted.

[UmbralRaptor]

Turn 5 submitted, and depending my funding situation, I believe I know what to do for turn 6.

Also, I think I\'ll need to start doing some serious testing for those unmanned probes.

[Awaras]

Turn submitted

[togfox]

Turn 5 is closed.

There are still 9 players in this, soldiering on despite the first version teething problems.

Quite a few are cashing up on the 16.5km mission but there was about $400 between the cheapest and expensive crafts. That\'s $400 less profit for some corp! Gotta build them lean guys!

Again, there is a small stat blip in this round and I thought about \'nerfing\' it but in the spirit of experimentation and learning, I\'ve left the blip there to see how it pans out. I hope you guys are keeping notes somewhere about the good and bad things you\'re experiencing. Take notes as you go so your whole summary is not based on just the last turn!!!

New rule for those using radio controlled unmanned pods:

I would consider a requirement of three Sats minimum around Kerbin before a mission can be flown to the Moon, and 3 2 around the moon before a landing can be done to remove any chance of radio black out..

(red text is mine).

So far we have no power sats in orbit so no one can do an unmanned flight to the Mun (safely). I\'ll keep a tally as the mission progresses so you can follow the sat-relay progress.

[pre]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| Player | Balance | Spent | Income | NewBalance | Turn | Claimed | Profit |

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| Alchemist | 8369 | 6125 | 8011 | 10255 | 5 | Leave object in orbit | 1886 |

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| Awaras | 10445 | 4000 | 0 | 6445 | 5 | Techlevel 3 | -4000 |

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| Awaras | 6445 | 3900 | 7599 | 10144 | 5 | 16,500 meters up | 3699 |

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| CrowZone | 9033 | 4025 | 7599 | 12607 | 5 | 16,500 meters up | 3574 |

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| DonLorenzo | 9506 | 6200 | 8011 | 11317 | 5 | Leave object in orbit | 1811 |

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| Sjwt | 9331 | 7047 | 9161 | 11445 | 5 | Achieve orbit with RCS onboard | 2114 |

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| STCatto | 7281 | 3800 | 7599 | 11080 | 5 | 16,500 meters up | 3799 |

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| UmbralRaptor | 10487 | 4000 | 0 | 6487 | 5 | Techlevel 3 | -4000 |

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| UmbralRaptor | 6487 | 4222 | 7599 | 9864 | 5 | 16,500 meters up | 3377 |

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[/pre]

Do follow your competitors and see what they did and how much that cost them. If you don\'t watch their R&D and how lean your craft are your corp will struggle needlessly.

Turn 6 is open until Wednesday night which is Wednesday morning in the USA.