Some ideas for solving the logistics issues for multiplayer

[hubbazoot]

Can\'t sleep. Idea\'s burning a hole in my head, so here it is.

This system would work best for smaller groups, most likely gamers who already know each other and are working together towards some common goal. Since the main issue with multiplayer is the time warp making trips practical, I have an idea for how to make that work.

For those of you that understand the reference, the idea is like this:

Spheres of influence: Once you\'re inside/outside a certain area, it really doesn\'t matter too much what\'s going on in another area. Since, primarily, what people are concerned with is Kerbin, Space Between, Mun, and Kerbin-Mun, then all you need is time warps for these.

Example: Player 1 (p1) and Player 2 (p2) both travel from Kerbin at different times. p1 reaches the space border first, and then gets set up to go to Mun. Orbit\'s locked in, Ap and Pe are all good, so they hit the time warp. Since p2 is still technically on Kerbin, p1 is able to time warp freely. p2 launches and gets to space, so p1 is pulled out of time warp. Since p1 and p2 are both in the same 'sphere of influence,' they have to vote for it (ideally with some form of configurable condition). The vote succeeds, time warp is set at the level desired until a player cancels it. p1 enters mun sphere of influence, but p2 is still in space. Time warp is now separate for p1 and p2. p1 slows down the time warp since they\'re getting ready to land, but p2 can continue their journey to get to the mun. If p2 accelerates, they see the p1/mun sphere of influence accelerate accordingly. p2 enters the mun\'s sphere of influence, so now they have to vote for it again.

Basically, the idea is that the players only use the same 'time acceleration' if they\'re in a similar area or condition. I.e. a player going for a low pass by the sun isn\'t really going to be too terribly concerned with the exact positioning of Mun and Kerbin. A player exploring Mun isn\'t going to be too terribly concerned with someone in low orbit around Mun.

Other ideas:

- A host-dictator system, where whoever is host is in charge of the time warp (maybe with some time delay before switching to prepare players or allow a cancel), and all the clients are time warped simultaneously.

- A players-just-vote system, where all the players have to agree to a given time warp in order to do the time warp suggested by the voter.

Yes, I know multiplayer is going to be a logistics hairball. Honestly, I\'d be okay with tolerating ANY form of multiplayer. I\'d really like this, and if some form of rough-in gets implemented, players can test it and the finer points of it can be worked out.

Also, as a side note, some form of way to override the 'safeties' on each orbital height would be nice. I\'ve been switching to a ship I have sitting on the ground to be able to time lapse faster, but having a way to do it in-ship would be fantastic.

[Aegrim]

I don\'t think that\'s there main problem with multiplayer, i think it\'s the actual network code that\'s the problem.

You could still play it with friends without time warp,

[mincespy]

I don\'t think that\'s there main problem with multiplayer, i think it\'s the actual network code that\'s the problem.

You could still play it with friends without time warp,

You could have time warp though.

Warp-drive.

You warp in real-time.

[neistridlar]

Multiplayer would indeed be awesome. I Like your ideas, but I think maybe there should be more options, decided by the host. Something like this maybe:

True time:

Every player in flight would have to vote for time warp, as you suggest, regardless of their position. This wold work well for low player count and realistic projects. The warp rules would probably have to be less strict than it is now, maybe all warp speeds allowed as long as no physics are being simulated. For longer journeys, players could just leave a craft unnamed, and do smaller projects in the mean time, like you can already do in singleplayer.

Partial time:

as suggested in OP. Suitable for medium player count, or where players do not cooperate closely.

Individual time:

Every man his own time warp. Highly unrealistic, rendezvous just got really simple. Suitable for high player count, and individual projects. At this point you might just as well play singleplayer though.

An other issue would be how to decide who can control which crafts. Should you be able to control any unmanned crafts, or should they only be able to take control of crafts they launched them selves? Some kind of permission system would probably be needed here.

Really hope something like this gets implemented.

[Guest]

I think each ship should have a sphere of influence. Its about 20 KM around the ship, and if another ship is within this area, Time warp is back to 1x, unless voted otherwise by the people in the conflicting spheres.

[LukeTim]

I\'m not sure I understand this idea very well.

From the sounds of it, you are saying that time in the Mun\'s SOI is independent of that in Kerbin\'s SOI and so it can be manipulated independently of Kerbin\'s 'time'.

Time doesn\'t work like this. Time is a universal continuum. If time is warped on the Mun, it is also warped on Kerbin.

The Spheres Of Influence refer to gravitational influence... not time-wells.

I do apologize in advance if I have misunderstood... in which case this post is very patronizing and I apologize.

[bio138]

Sounds like a good idea, the only problem is if its added it will prolly be like that, because individual time warp wont work due to the fact the moon moves faster in time warp so planets wil be re-arrenged.

The voting option sounds good and BIG servers will prolly be unheard of because there will be too many people.

So IF they conquer the code and connection codes (would be insane lol) it will prolly be like that.

Other than thatr good idea

[Majiir]

The problem with moving bodies at different rates is that someone might be on a trajectory with a planned intercept. If you accelerate the planet, moon or vessel that someone\'s trying to rendezvous with, they\'ll miss their target. Consistently.

[Aegrim]

Also, most MP games with modifiable time generally stick to the slowest time any player has set. IE, 3 players have x4 set, 1 player has x1, it\'s stuck at x1 until he moves it up unless another player moves it down.

[hubbazoot]

Piecewise response! Here we go.

Like I said in my orig. post, I assumed there was some form of spirit of cooperation between the players.

You could have time warp though.

Warp-drive.

You warp in real-time.

I like that idea. It\'s kinda cheat-ish, but it would probably be the simplest approach.

Multiplayer would indeed be awesome. I Like your ideas, but I think maybe there should be more options, decided by the host. Something like this maybe:

True time:

Every player in flight would have to vote for time warp, as you suggest, regardless of their position. This wold work well for low player count and realistic projects. The warp rules would probably have to be less strict than it is now, maybe all warp speeds allowed as long as no physics are being simulated. For longer journeys, players could just leave a craft unnamed, and do smaller projects in the mean time, like you can already do in singleplayer.

The 'true time' suggestion was kinda bubbled into my 'voting conditions,' i.e. the voting condition could be a 100% consensus.

I think each ship should have a sphere of influence. Its about 20 KM around the ship, and if another ship is within this area, Time warp is back to 1x, unless voted otherwise by the people in the conflicting spheres.

20KM is miniscule. The only time I ever really get within 20km of another ship is an orbital rendezvous. It\'s 11,400km to the Mun.

I\'m not sure I understand this idea very well.

From the sounds of it, you are saying that time in the Mun\'s SOI is independent of that in Kerbin\'s SOI and so it can be manipulated independently of Kerbin\'s 'time'.

Time doesn\'t work like this. Time is a universal continuum. If time is warped on the Mun, it is also warped on Kerbin.

The Spheres Of Influence refer to gravitational influence... not time-wells.

I do apologize in advance if I have misunderstood... in which case this post is very patronizing and I apologize.

The picture I posted really is actually the best explanation of this. What happens in that episode of Star Trek is the crew comes across a planet that is in a time well. The planet itself is moving in an INCREDIBLY fast orbit, or appears to be, but the crew is unaffected outside of this region. They end up sending their resident AI down to the planet, and beam him back in about 10 seconds, but two weeks have elapsed on the planet already.

So, if you\'re not technically 'in space,' yet, what\'s it to you if the planet is rotating fast? You and the planet are in your own 'inertial frame,' so it really doesn\'t 'matter' what the exact position/orientation of the planet is. Yes, it would turn the gravity wells also into time wells, but that seems the easiest way to allow multiple players to time warp and keep the 'system time' relatively intact.

Sounds like a good idea, the only problem is if its added it will prolly be like that, because individual time warp wont work due to the fact the moon moves faster in time warp so planets wil be re-arranged.

The voting option sounds good and BIG servers will prolly be unheard of because there will be too many people.

So IF they conquer the code and connection codes (would be insane lol) it will prolly be like that.

Other than thatr good idea

See above.

The problem with moving bodies at different rates is that someone might be on a trajectory with a planned intercept. If you accelerate the planet, moon or vessel that someone\'s trying to rendezvous with, they\'ll miss their target. Consistently.

Like I said, spheres of influence having their own time warps. I usually don\'t aim for a specific spot on the Mun to land until I\'m actually in its gravity well. When coming back, I don\'t aim for a specific spot on Kerbin to land until I\'m back in a low orbit around Kerbin, so I really don\'t care if the planet is spinning at 5000RPM while I\'m putzing to/from the Mun. The idea is, I don\'t think people are *too* concerned with the exact orientation of other astral bodies, so long as the position is right, which this time/gravity well system would allow for.

Also, most MP games with modifiable time generally stick to the slowest time any player has set. IE, 3 players have x4 set, 1 player has x1, it\'s stuck at x1 until he moves it up unless another player moves it down.

That could make waiting for your 'special' friend who can\'t get out of low orbit very difficult to play with if you\'re trying to go to the Mun, and are really multiplayer-ing for sake of having someone to talk to.

[neistridlar]

The problem with moving bodies at different rates is that someone might be on a trajectory with a planned intercept. If you accelerate the planet, moon or vessel that someone\'s trying to rendezvous with, they\'ll miss their target. Consistently.

The mun would have to move according to the warp speed set for Kerbin, as it is in Kerbins SOI, and Kerbin (and future planets) would move according to the suns warp speed, and so on. When you are in the Mun SOI, it does not matter a lot how fast the Mun is moving relative to Kerbin as long as you move consistently relative to the Mun. This might still be a problem when going from one planet to an other still, as the time to get out of the first planets SOI might be significant though.

[hubbazoot]

The mun would have to move according to the warp speed set for Kerbin, as it is in Kerbins SOI, and Kerbin (and future planets) would move according to the suns warp speed, and so on. When you are in the Mun SOI, it does not matter a lot how fast the Mun is moving relative to Kerbin as long as you move consistently relative to the Mun. This might still be a problem when going from one planet to an other still, as the time to get out of the first planets SOI might be significant though.

Ah, I totally forgot about one 'plane' of motion. If you were inside the SOI of Kerbin and accelerated time, this would only speed up rotational, but not translational, motion.

[Pluto100]

Can\'t sleep. Idea\'s burning a hole in my head, so here it is.

This system would work best for smaller groups, most likely gamers who already know each other and are working together towards some common goal. Since the main issue with multiplayer is the time warp making trips practical, I have an idea for how to make that work.

For those of you that understand the reference, the idea is like this:

Spheres of influence: Once you\'re inside/outside a certain area, it really doesn\'t matter too much what\'s going on in another area. Since, primarily, what people are concerned with is Kerbin, Space Between, Mun, and Kerbin-Mun, then all you need is time warps for these.

Example: Player 1 (p1) and Player 2 (p2) both travel from Kerbin at different times. p1 reaches the space border first, and then gets set up to go to Mun. Orbit\'s locked in, Ap and Pe are all good, so they hit the time warp. Since p2 is still technically on Kerbin, p1 is able to time warp freely. p2 launches and gets to space, so p1 is pulled out of time warp. Since p1 and p2 are both in the same 'sphere of influence,' they have to vote for it (ideally with some form of configurable condition). The vote succeeds, time warp is set at the level desired until a player cancels it. p1 enters mun sphere of influence, but p2 is still in space. Time warp is now separate for p1 and p2. p1 slows down the time warp since they\'re getting ready to land, but p2 can continue their journey to get to the mun. If p2 accelerates, they see the p1/mun sphere of influence accelerate accordingly. p2 enters the mun\'s sphere of influence, so now they have to vote for it again.

Basically, the idea is that the players only use the same 'time acceleration' if they\'re in a similar area or condition. I.e. a player going for a low pass by the sun isn\'t really going to be too terribly concerned with the exact positioning of Mun and Kerbin. A player exploring Mun isn\'t going to be too terribly concerned with someone in low orbit around Mun.

Other ideas:

- A host-dictator system, where whoever is host is in charge of the time warp (maybe with some time delay before switching to prepare players or allow a cancel), and all the clients are time warped simultaneously.

- A players-just-vote system, where all the players have to agree to a given time warp in order to do the time warp suggested by the voter.

Yes, I know multiplayer is going to be a logistics hairball. Honestly, I\'d be okay with tolerating ANY form of multiplayer. I\'d really like this, and if some form of rough-in gets implemented, players can test it and the finer points of it can be worked out.

Also, as a side note, some form of way to override the 'safeties' on each orbital height would be nice. I\'ve been switching to a ship I have sitting on the ground to be able to time lapse faster, but having a way to do it in-ship would be fantastic.

WARNING: Off-Topic

That was the best episode of Star Trek: Voyager EVER!!!!!

Cool Idea!

[samstarman5]

While I am one to always encourage enthusiasm for the game, I am going to say here and now to everyone to not get your hopes up of any sort of multiplayer in the game.

As things are now, we already do have a strong multiplayer facet going, with the sharing of craft ideas, custom parts, and stories of our adventures we share with images and videos. I am actually satisfied with that.

If there is one way to actually implement multiplayer, it would be through coop in one mission. While the conception of a shared space where multiple missions take place is a nice idea, I would have to think that the server load would be pretty high. I doubt this is something you could just run off your older Dual Core PC sitting in your closet. And you could definitely kiss time warp goodbye. Say it was just localized to each world\'s SOI. That would include Kerbol\'s SOI as well. Think of how many interplanetary missions would be occuring, and you wanted to accelerate yours. Fine, pump up the time frame and suddenly your buddy\'s mission just took a dump into the biggest gas giant because he didn\'t have time to adjust the transition into planetary orbit. That is a recipe for griefers beyond belief.

But a 2-3 player coop where you each take part in how a mission performs can be a much better platform. That would take away some of the stress of worrying about parts of the mission as well as can keep time warp in the equation when the mission is in transition with no need for adjustment in between. It would give you and your buddies a chance to get a feel of how it is to sit in an Apollo capsule with two others, as well as plenty of opportunity to keep everything kerbal, as well. It is one thing to cut a stage that is still burning yourself, but to see your buddy goof up and send those boosters off premature is recipe for a new kind of kerbal frustration. But to also successfully accomplish a mission as well between the two or three of you would be awesome, as well.

[maxpower]

I\'m not sure how the game handles time warp exactlly, but its possible that there would be no way to have different warp speeds for different areas. Since the universe is one single world, if one part of it is warping fast, the rest of it might have to warp fast as well.

Not to mention there are countless holes in this idea when you start thinking of all the possible scenarios, for example:

1. The obvious problem... what if two people want different warp speeds in the same sphere of influence? Then your back to the very issue at hand.

2. Say you plan to do a slingshot around Planet X. If your in time warp, yet the planet/its moons aren\'t.... how would you time your slingshot so you don\'t hit the moons?

3. If I\'m in Kerbin orbit, and want to head to the Mun/another target that is currently in a high time warp... its going to be a pain in the ass to target the launch just right.

----------------------------------------------------

There are a lot of other issues as well. I give you credit for trying to come up with a creative solution, but the whole world needs to warp at the same speed or there will be issues.

[hubbazoot]

I\'m not sure how the game handles time warp exactlly, but its possible that there would be no way to have different warp speeds for different areas. Since the universe is one single world, if one part of it is warping fast, the rest of it might have to warp fast as well.

Not to mention there are countless holes in this idea when you start thinking of all the possible scenarios, for example:

1. The obvious problem... what if two people want different warp speeds in the same sphere of influence? Then your back to the very issue at hand.

2. Say you plan to do a slingshot around Planet X. If your in time warp, yet the planet/its moons aren\'t.... how would you time your slingshot so you don\'t hit the moons?

3. If I\'m in Kerbin orbit, and want to head to the Mun/another target that is currently in a high time warp... its going to be a pain in the ass to target the launch just right.

----------------------------------------------------

There are a lot of other issues as well. I give you credit for trying to come up with a creative solution, but the whole world needs to warp at the same speed or there will be issues.

True.... the other solution is to have the system be in 'real time' and it\'s only your ship that accelerates in time.

I did kind of assume that players had a spirit of cooperation at some level.

[hubbazoot]

Another solution that just became a possibility with the 0.16 patch: Each player is a different crewmember. Yeah, that may mean a lot of non-flying for someone, but the controls could be split up across multiple people. Only one person can see the map, only one person can do RCS, and only one person can handle pitch and the main engine.

[chrislo27]

Another solution that just became a possibility with the 0.16 patch: Each player is a different crewmember. Yeah, that may mean a lot of non-flying for someone, but the controls could be split up across multiple people. Only one person can see the map, only one person can do RCS, and only one person can handle pitch and the main engine.

What if someone tries to crash the craft when the others don\'t want that?

Since I\'m a programmer and all, I have a small solution.

Each player has their own universe. They can time warp freely and stuff. But then as one craft (debris too) gets near another object (positions), the time warp will automatically slow to 1x. Once you move out, of the sphere of influence, you can warp freely. The radius for each craft should be 15 - 20km.

[hubbazoot]

What if someone tries to crash the craft when the others don\'t want that?

Since I\'m a programmer and all, I have a small solution.

Each player has their own universe. They can time warp freely and stuff. But then as one craft (debris too) gets near another object (positions), the time warp will automatically slow to 1x. Once you move out, of the sphere of influence, you can warp freely. The radius for each craft should be 15 - 20km.

Yeah, unless you\'re really trying to coop, that makes things difficult.

Would that method mean that the 'systema\' of kerbin and such would remain moving at real time?

[chrislo27]

Yeah, unless you\'re really trying to coop, that makes things difficult.

Would that method mean that the 'systema\' of kerbin and such would remain moving at real time?

That is my issue see. One working option is to remove time warp completely or have an op control it for everyone else.

[hubbazoot]

That is my issue see. One working option is to remove time warp completely or have an op control it for everyone else.

Having an op control it would work, or having it done by popular vote.

Or an option between the two.

[Dspan_000]

I have a idea for the time warp system.

P1 and P2 are playing and P1 has an encounter with Duna and P2 is in a Kerbin orbit. P1 time warps and heads to duna and P2 sees nothing wrong whatso over. As the planets and moons are not sped up. P1 gets to Duna and he untime warps and hes there. On P2's screen on the map view all the sudden P1 snaps from his out of kerbin SOI orbit into Dunas SOI. (AKA he basicly TP'S there for the other player. Sure this system would be weird and may look a bit skechy but it may work.

[Hobbes Novakoff]

Guys, don't we have a system that works perfectly well? In other words, the DMP system? Everyone can timewarp freely, and they are each in their own little instance of gametime.

You can't interact with ships that aren't synchronized with your instance of gametime. However, if you want to meet up with a player, you either synchronize your gametime (By time warping automatically to their gametime) if your instance is behind theirs, or ask them to sync their gametime. Then you carry out whatever joint maneuvers you want. Least hassle, easy to use, no restrictions on your time warping. Done.

EDIT: Oh man, I just realized that this thread is a 3 year necro. Oops. Mods, please lock.

[Red Iron Crown]

Dspan_000, perhaps it would be better to start a new thread for your idea, many of the participants in this one have moved on. Locked.