Symmetry Automatically Switching to "Radial" in SPH

[Srpadget]

There has been much joy over the new "selectable symmetry" in 0.90. I, too, thought this would be a Good Thing. Sadly, KSP seems to have its own ideas about what symmetry I "should" be using in the SPH--and that symmetry, apparently, is RADIAL. Whether that's what I think I "should" want or not.

The design I have in mind uses FL-series LFO tanks, which admittedly are "rocket" parts rather than "plane" parts. This may be contributing to the issue. At any rate, during the build process there comes a point where KSP "automagically" switches me over to radial symmetry with no action on my part...and then it becomes impossible to switch it back.

I do know about the "R" key binding to toggle symmetry. I can guarantee that I have NOT touched it when this happens.

If I hit the "R" key after KSP auto-toggles to radial symmetry... No joy. Sure, it "works" in that KSP gives me a "Mirror symmetry" message and changes the symmetry icon from dot to square. All as expected and as it should be. However, the instant I try to attach a new part, *POOF* the icon changes back, the "Radial symmetry" HUD message appears, and that's how the new part insists on attaching. And NOTHING after that seems to make any difference--I toggle back to Mirror symmetry, try to place a part, and the symmetry mode changes itself back to radial as soon as the new part attaches. (Grrrrr!)

The overall behavior is similar to the longstanding VAB behavior that once a "core" part has something radially attached in, say, 4-fold symmetry, EVERYTHING radially attached to that part will have 4-fold radial symmetry. Except that I am certain I am not doing anything to "set" anything on the craft to radial symmetry--KSP is doing that all by its lonesom.

As already noted, I am using FL-series "rocket" LFO tanks (better mass fraction than Mk2 tanks, and fewer joint-stiffness issues than Mk3 tanks), and of course there are rocket engines involved (it's a spaceplane, after all; it needs to operate in orbit, y'know). The issue MAY be initially appearing when I first attach a rocket engine to a FL tank; I have yet to stay calm enough while in the SPH to do the requisite experimentation. (If so, the obvious workaround would be to place the rocket engines last. Except that balancing the CoL vs CoM would seem to demand all engines be placed prior to finalizing the wing design/position...at least, that's the only way I've ever had success with spaceplanes to date.)

So, three questions:

1) Has anyone else seen this, or am I the first?

2) Is this a "bug", or is it a deliberate "feature" for some (incomprehensible to me) reason?

3) Is there a known fix/workaround?

For now, I'm considering using Mk2 parts just to see what happens, despite their sucky fuel/structure mass ratio (and this is SUPPOSED to be a refueling tanker, so a less-than-ideal mass fraction is particularly irksome to me).

Edited December 30, 2014 by Claw
reworded for clarity

[Cerberus738]

I've only seen that happen when I load a craft started in the VAB into the SPH. sorry not much help.

[monophonic]

I saw this exact same thing myself when I tried to attach something with mirror symmetry to parts that were themselves attached to the core with radial symmetry. This was in VAB though, I haven't built much in SPH to date.

I chalked that one up to technical reasons, i.e. the game is simply unable to mix symmetry modes in a single symmetric branch of the part tree. In my case the two boosters could have been placed with mirror symmetry just as well, but it did not occur to me at the time.

[Srpadget]

After a bit of further investigation:

The issue appears to be related to radially attaching a SUBASSEMBLY (subassembly in question is a stack of FL-T tanks; still don't know if that's a contributing factor) using symmetry. That operation works okay, but if anything is then attached to that subassembly (axially, at least), the auto-toggle to radial symmetry occurs.

Potentially of note: the subassembly was also created in the SPH. There is no VAB "contamination" anywhere in this build. (I did, however, call the subassembly "Temp", which overwrote the previous "Temp"...which WAS built in the VAB. Again, no idea if that name retains its VAB connection somehow, or whether that is/isn't contributing to the issue.)

When I directly attached a single FL-T tank (not subassembly) to the core, mirror symmetry was retained--and I could attach more parts to it without invoking 'radial symmetry auto-toggle'.

(I begin to think this is a bug. But I have yet to isolate what actually invokes it. Sneaking suspicion that the overwrite of the name 'Temp' did not clear the initial association with the VAB....)

- - - Updated - - -

Started a new virgin save, reproduced the above without ever setting foot in the VAB. The upshot appears to be that the 'radial symmetry auto-toggle' is invoked by attaching a part to a member of a subassembly which was itself attached using mirror symmetry. I cannot imagine this being anything other than a bug. Though, all things considered, probably not an immensely high priority bug. (No krakens are invoked, it doesn't screw up the behavior of a craft already 'in play', etc.)

Could a mod move this discussion to Bug Reports, please?

[Faelucc]

Hi!

You don't need to use "subassembly" functionality to reproduce this bug : you only have to use the symmetry mode on a group of parts.

1/ Put any part in the middle (let's say, Mk2 Inline Cockpit )

2/ Attach another part (hmmm Small Hardpoint ?) to one side of the Cockpit

3/ Attach a part to the Small Hardpoint (we aren't using any symmetry mode yet), a fuel tank for example...

4/ Switch to mirror symmetry mode, take the Small Hardpoint and attach it again... and we have nod a symetric "plane"

5/ Now, try to attach in mirror symmetry mode to the fuel tank... hmmm.... a fuel line? (good luck )

I've tested with a rocket fuel tank, a jet fuel tank, some structural parts... same result : can't attach anything to them using mirror symmetry mode once i've "duplicated" them this way.

When you select a root part of a group of parts and use mirror symmetry mode, all the child parts doesn't switch themselves recursively to mirror symmetry mode (and still use their default symmetry mode... radial?). Yep, sound like a bug (or it's the strangest feature ever ><)

Workaround: If you have this bug, re-attach each part of the group in mirror symmetry mode, root part of the group first, then his children, ect... ("recursively", as the game should do)

You should avoid to build your plane by attaching the parts on one side only and using the mirror symmetry mode to duplicate them (until the bug is fixed ).

[DILLSN0OB]

I have found a way. While holding the object, hit R and then X. This will switch to mirror and hitting X will toggle the symmetry and fix it. If this didnt help, pm me and I can try to be more helpful.

[Daveroski]

Hi!

You don't need to use "subassembly" functionality to reproduce this bug : you only have to use the symmetry mode on a group of parts.

1/ Put any part in the middle (let's say, Mk2 Inline Cockpit )

2/ Attach another part (hmmm Small Hardpoint ?) to one side of the Cockpit

3/ Attach a part to the Small Hardpoint (we aren't using any symmetry mode yet), a fuel tank for example...

4/ Switch to mirror symmetry mode, take the Small Hardpoint and attach it again... and we have nod a symetric "plane"

5/ Now, try to attach in mirror symmetry mode to the fuel tank... hmmm.... a fuel line? (good luck )

I've tested with a rocket fuel tank, a jet fuel tank, some structural parts... same result : can't attach anything to them using mirror symmetry mode once i've "duplicated" them this way.

When you select a root part of a group of parts and use mirror symmetry mode, all the child parts doesn't switch themselves recursively to mirror symmetry mode (and still use their default symmetry mode... radial?). Yep, sound like a bug (or it's the strangest feature ever ><)

Workaround: If you have this bug, re-attach each part of the group in mirror symmetry mode, root part of the group first, then his children, ect... ("recursively", as the game should do)

You should avoid to build your plane by attaching the parts on one side only and using the mirror symmetry mode to duplicate them (until the bug is fixed ).

I agree with Faelucc.

I've had the same problem in the same way but by taking off a wing hitting X and replacing it to get the mirror.

When trying to attach anything to the wing symmetry auto-switches to radial.

[allmhuran]

I get this all the time and it's incredibly annoying.

[Van Disaster]

I get it usually after using one of the offset tools. Agreed, ridiculously annoying.

[Columbia]

I have the same issue. Whenever I attach wing segments to each other instead of on the fuselage itself, it switches to radial when I attach things under the wing.

It's starting to really get me frustrated.

[allmhuran]

OK, I actually can't finish something now because of this bug. Something I've been working on for a week. If I had a physical copy of the game I'd be hurling it out a window

[allmhuran]

Further experience suggests this often seems to be related to the Connection nodes disappearing bug.

[r_loewe]

ugh squad just gets me so annoyed SQUAD GET YOUR FRICKIN' ACT TOGETHER!!!

[Overland]

THIS!!! Bloody horrible bug!!

At first I thought im pressing a button wrong until I realised that it wasnt a button at all but the game

 

Build a nice plane.come back from a flight and go to add or modify wing placement..landing gear..fuel tanks and youll get the mirror opposite with the wings wanting to do either a swastika shape or turn into a starwars 3 winged shuttle..no way in hell of getting it back without exiting SPH and going back in

Want to place landing gear in another spot? NO SOUP FOR YOU!'

Here have one wheel up in the air and one on the ground..

Absolutely horrible!! 

Fix it please.. Ive been with this game for a long time building trains and aircraft... This bug kills all of that

[luckyindiana525]

I've been having the same problem with my X-Wing I have been building, I know this is hard but try placing it without Symmetry mode it might help