Allow us to have at least some action groups for every level of the VAB/SPH

[Alshain]

It is old but the point is still true.  Limiting controls to allow them to be unlocked through progressive gameplay is simply the worst mechanic in the game. It's even worse than that awful ISRU system.

Edited April 24, 2016 by Alshain

[Honeybadga]

Yup, Action Groups Extended not being out yet for 1.1 is pretty much the only reason that's keeping me from playing a career game in 1.1. Does anyone know a mod other than AGX that can override that limitation in career mode?

[Choctofliatrio2.0]

I honestly couldn't care less about the action groups. The 30 part limitation means I'm not going to be building huge jets or interplanetary missions with lots of different action groups, until I upgrade. The way I see it, action groups are part of a ship's automation. I think in the early space program, the Kerbals know very little about actually automating their ships and satellites, and have to manually command it to do things. Just my two cents.

[Honeybadga]

On 26.4.2016 at 3:07 PM, Choctofliatrio2.0 said:

I honestly couldn't care less about the action groups. The 30 part limitation means I'm not going to be building huge jets or interplanetary missions with lots of different action groups, until I upgrade. The way I see it, action groups are part of a ship's automation. I think in the early space program, the Kerbals know very little about actually automating their ships and satellites, and have to manually command it to do things. Just my two cents.

But after the first upgrade that allows you to build vessels with up to 255 parts, you still can't use the custom action groups. Only after the third upgrade, that costs a whopping 1.1 million Kredits, you can. I think that increasing the part limitation is what upgrading the VAB and SPH should be about. If anything, we should have the basic action groups and maybe two to three custom groups at level 1.

[Choctofliatrio2.0]

8 minutes ago, Honeybadga said:

But after the first upgrade that allows you to build vessels with up to 255 parts, you still can't use the custom action groups. Only after the third upgrade, that costs a whopping 1.1 million Kredits, you can. I think that increasing the part limitation is what upgrading the VAB and SPH should be about. If anything, we should have the basic action groups and maybe two to three custom groups at level 1.

Idk about having them at level 1, but I agree at level 2

[Honeybadga]

Then how about basic action groups at level 1.

Custom groups 1-5 at level 2.

Custom groups 6-0 at level 3?

[LeuZ]

30 minutes ago, Honeybadga said:

Then how about basic action groups at level 1.

Custom groups 1-5 at level 2.

Custom groups 6-0 at level 3?

Yes, that would be a good Idea, because in the beginning you dont need that much action groups. But it would still simulate the progression of computer technology (If that's the idea behind it)

[Jacke]

6 hours ago, LeuZ said:

Yes, that would be a good Idea, because in the beginning you dont need that much action groups. But it would still simulate the progression of computer technology (If that's the idea behind it)

Problem is control technology in our world was equivalent to having custom actions groups even for original sounding rockets of the late 1940's to 1950's and and back into the earliest research and World War 2 weapon use.  They controlled multiple things simultaneously, if that what was needed to control a particular rocket for a particular flight.

Right-click menus and custom action groups are just two different methods of abstracting the complex control systems of real rockets.  Stock custom action groups are in many ways a better abstraction, because you can only change them in the VAB/SPH, making them something you design when you build the rocket.  You even still primarily act this way even with the mod Action Groups Extended, despite it allowing you to edit action groups in flight, because getting the control right may require changing the design of the rocket.  You have to think about how you're going to fly the rocket and think ahead. And that's a good thing you have to do in so many ways in KSP.

Even with 30-part rockets, you can still easily bury parts, and even if you haven't, some of them are tiny, making their right-click menus hard to find and operate.  And with many rockets, especially spaceplanes, you have to access many changes in those right-click menus near simultaneously, often at crucial points of their flight, when you need your hands on the controls and your eyes on the crucial flight data numbers.  Not fiddling with the mouse and peering at right-click menus.

@FlowerChild, the author of the career total conversion mod Better Than Starting Manned, and a hardcore and good manual rocket designer (doesn't use delta-V) and manual pilot, thinks restricting the use of Custom Action Groups in career is just wrong.  Here's his comment about it from the change notes on a past BTSM version, where he discusses another point in stock career, that you have to independently upgrade the launch pad and runway, as well the VAB and SPH, despite them being similar and in some way interchangeable.  (Text bolding not in the original; done by me to focus on the action group comment.)

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/56101-104better-than-starting-manned-career-mode-redefined-v1002-sep-21st/&do=findComment&comment=1953359

Quote

Changed the launch pad and runway upgrades so that if you upgrade one, the other is automatically upgraded as well at no added charge, and did the same for the SPH and VAB as well. I did this because these facilities are functionally identical except in the most trivial ways, and having them as separate upgrades will ultimately encourage stuff like only upgrading the runway and launching rockets from it, or only upgrading the VAB and rolling airplanes off the launchpad and onto the runway with it. Basically, keeping them separate just encourages players to do gamey things to save cash while being annoyed by the lack of GUI support for the specific kind of vehicle they're building/flying, and that's no fun for anyone. I realized with time that it's similar to the action group thing in that you're paying in-game resources for what is strictly a UI convenience, which is hardly ever a good thing.

The concern about VAB/SPH and launchpad/runway is more debatable that custom action groups, in that these are different facilities and should have independent costs, despite their interchangeable use.  Still, FC points to the gameplay concern and he's right about it too.

Although in the real world control systems have to advance and each facility has to be built and improved independently, any game, even the most detailed simulation, is still a game and is here to be enjoyed.  Having custom action groups doesn't prevent sole use of right-click menus.  Having no custom action groups in early career just means you are forced to struggle with right-click menus in all the settings I've mentioned until you can scrap together 1,070,000 funds just for the VAB.  And again for the SPH.

Hard career games get 60% of standard game benefits.  I know of a player who's decided to try stock career at the 20% level.  Over a million funds can take a very long time to get.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Jacke