Late Game Science: !!SCIENCE!! Rockets and Upgradeable Parts

[etmoonshade]

So we were talking on IRC, and I was complaining about how I've got 18k science and nothing to use it for. We came up with two ideas (and I'm not going to blame anyone else for these.)

Idea 1: !!SCIENCE!! Rockets

Simple concept - make an engine that uses the universal pool of science as a reaction mass. I'll point out that I have absolutely no clue how (or if) this would work code-wise - it fits in with the general silliness of KSP though, and gives a really good reason to keep collecting science. Depending on the ISP and thrust of the !!SCIENCE!! Rocket, you might even be able to use science to get science.

Idea 2: Upgradeable Parts

This is another concept I'm not sure is even possible: Basically, use <x> science to give a flat 1.05 or 0.95 multiplier to a particular "stat" on a part: Mass, ISP, Thrust, EC/s, etc. The advantage to being able to modify any of the properties by a set amount should make a mod for this universal. Examples of how it would work:

The LV-N Atomic Rocket Motor makes for a wonderful orbital maneuvering engine. Great ISP, decent thrust... but it's a bit heavy. Using this mod, you could spend 10000 science to drop the mass from 2.25 to 2.1375. Not a huge difference, but enough to squeeze a bit of Delta-V out of it.

Alternately, you could spend 10000 science to raise the thrust from 60kN to 63kN. Again, not HUGE, but it's a way to spend that extra science AND a reason to keep gathering science.

Another thing you could tweak is the cost - 10k science to drop the cost of it from 8700 to 8265. Not worth the science in this case, but if you end up with some of the pricier KSP-I parts, it might be (the Alcubierre drives are in the millions, for example.)

For balance, you could either make it so each successive upgrade (either per-part or globally) costs more science, or you could tweak the formula from a simple multiplier to something that places a limit on how much you can tweak a part.

Thoughts?

[Milaga]

I approve of this.

[RainDreamer]

Second idea seems more plausible than first. I don't think you can just use currencies as fuel... Maybe we can have a special fuel tank that reads the currency value then turn that to resource unit call SCIENCE!! and then use that as fuel, then deduct fuel used afterward? Actually, never mind that, way too much.

Second idea can be somewhat achievable with basically making a modified copy of all parts, then vertical branches that are upgrades and spend science on them. But that is not exactly a smart way to go about it either.

I rather use science to train kerbals instead, if possible. Spend a bunch of science time teaching kerbals, maybe they would be better pilots, engineer, and of course, scientists. If science->fund strategy has higher efficiency, I wouldn't mind using that one either.

[etmoonshade]

Second idea seems more plausible than first. I don't think you can just use currencies as fuel... Maybe we can have a special fuel tank that reads the currency value then turn that to resource unit call SCIENCE!! and then use that as fuel, then deduct fuel used afterward? Actually, never mind that, way too much.

Second idea can be somewhat achievable with basically making a modified copy of all parts, then vertical branches that are upgrades and spend science on them. But that is not exactly a smart way to go about it either.

I rather use science to train kerbals instead, if possible. Spend a bunch of science time teaching kerbals, maybe they would be better pilots, engineer, and of course, scientists. If science->fund strategy has higher efficiency, I wouldn't mind using that one either.

Another excellent idea.

My general problem is that science feels too hard to start, and is WAY too easy to gain in the late game. I don't mind the latter so much as the former, because I like getting to the really fun parts as soon as possible. But once I have the tech tree filled, out, there's just... no reason to gain more science. The conversion from science to funds is too tiny (and is arguably WAY too generous in the other direction,) conversion to reputation feels useless, and leaving it as is just gains you more of a useless resource.

[worir4]

I don't like upgradable parts because then it becomes more difficult to share craft and such. And isn't science finite? so if you had a science fueled ship and you ran out of science to collect, then what?

[etmoonshade]

I don't like upgradable parts because then it becomes more difficult to share craft and such. And isn't science finite? so if you had a science fueled ship and you ran out of science to collect, then what?

As long as contracts are always doable, science is always gainable - just do the outsourced R&D strategy. That's part of how I've ended up with so much science, in fact.

And I definitely don't suggest that this end up in the stock game for exactly the reason you suggest - but I suspect that it'll appeal heavily to people who don't share ships.

[LABHOUSE]

Asteroids can give a player more science, and 100% of what it was the last time you did it, no lowering the science.

[Seeker89]

Another excellent idea.

My general problem is that science feels too hard to start, and is WAY too easy to gain in the late game. I don't mind the latter so much as the former, because I like getting to the really fun parts as soon as possible. But once I have the tech tree filled, out, there's just... no reason to gain more science. The conversion from science to funds is too tiny (and is arguably WAY too generous in the other direction,) conversion to reputation feels useless, and leaving it as is just gains you more of a useless resource.

I guess we just need big tech trees... lol.

Idea 2: Upgradeable Parts

This is another concept I'm not sure is even possible: Basically, use <x> science to give a flat 1.05 or 0.95 multiplier to a particular "stat" on a part: Mass, ISP, Thrust, EC/s, etc. The advantage to being able to modify any of the properties by a set amount should make a mod for this universal. Examples of how it would work:

The LV-N Atomic Rocket Motor makes for a wonderful orbital maneuvering engine. Great ISP, decent thrust... but it's a bit heavy. Using this mod, you could spend 10000 science to drop the mass from 2.25 to 2.1375. Not a huge difference, but enough to squeeze a bit of Delta-V out of it.

Alternately, you could spend 10000 science to raise the thrust from 60kN to 63kN. Again, not HUGE, but it's a way to spend that extra science AND a reason to keep gathering science.

Another thing you could tweak is the cost - 10k science to drop the cost of it from 8700 to 8265. Not worth the science in this case, but if you end up with some of the pricier KSP-I parts, it might be (the Alcubierre drives are in the millions, for example.)

For balance, you could either make it so each successive upgrade (either per-part or globally) costs more science, or you could tweak the formula from a simple multiplier to something that places a limit on how much you can tweak a part.

Thoughts?

I do like this idea... and i think it is used in the interstellar mod, well kinda.

[etmoonshade]

I do like this idea... and i think it is used in the interstellar mod, well kinda.

Yeah, KSP-I does a thing where parts (reactors and radiators come immediately to mind) get an upgrade once you hit certain points in the tech tree, and you can upgrade old parts using science. The problem is that it's static and (as far as I can tell) requires the different upgrades to be defined in the files.

What I was thinking was something a lot more freeform - instead of having an across-the-board upgrade, it'll let you tweak and enhance some of your favorite parts instead (I know I'd totally put some work into the PB-ION, for example.) What I'm -not- sure of (based on looking at the API) is whether you can modify parts on the fly like that, or if every "upgrade" would require you to reload the parts - hence why I consider this a mod request.