Transfer window indication

[Wjolcz]

Its kind of a repost, but I felt like it needed its own place.

Another thing, apart from engineers reports in the VAB, that could be added are launch windows indication. How I see it: you go to the tracking station and it basically says something like "The launch window for Jool is available." It would say that in the contracts-like window in the right upper corner of the tracking station screen and the text would go from red, through green and red again. That red-green-red transition would happen during the time period that is most efficient for the transfer. Red - good but not very efficient, Green - the best time for the transfer. Nothing showing - not worth wasting fuel to get there.

Nothing fancy but would be very useful.

[Alshain]

It would seem like a good idea, but why would Squad define my transfer window? The concept of a transfer window is arbitrary. If you want to go to Jool, you can go any time you want, it just might cost you more fuel or take longer to get there to go now rather than later. So at what level of fuel savings and travel time defines the beginning and end of a "transfer window"? That shouldn't be decided by Squad.

Transfer Window Planner lets you choose your own window based on your own criteria. You can choose how long you want the round trip to be and how much fuel you want to spend in your own planning stages. I suggest you give it a look.

[tater]

The contracts (though I hate that word for scientific missions that should in fact be planned by your own space program) could absolutely offer missions that are predicated on good launch windows. Why should a player have to use something outside the game to learn when efficient windows are? How are new players supposed to learn what to look for? (any such information should be inside the stock game, so any "check the internet" answers, including mod downloads are non-starters, IMO)

I think letting people know is a great idea.

"Send a Probe to Jool" text of mission then says there is a low delta v transfer window opportunity around days XXX-YYY.

Great learning tool for people.

[Wjolcz]

It would seem like a good idea, but why would Squad define my transfer window? The concept of a transfer window is arbitrary. If you want to go to Jool, you can go any time you want, it just might cost you more fuel or take longer to get there to go now rather than later. So at what level of fuel savings and travel time defines the beginning and end of a "transfer window"? That shouldn't be decided by Squad.

Transfer Window Planner lets you choose your own window based on your own criteria. You can choose how long you want the round trip to be and how much fuel you want to spend in your own planning stages. I suggest you give it a look.

Well, if you don't want to waste fuel or don't use the interstellar mod with all that warp and high-ISP engines then, like me, you want to have a "DING!" report saying that it is time to perform an interplanetary mission. What you are implying is that it would somehow force you to make the transfer burns, because it's optimal. I want to only KNOW when it's the best time to do that.

Also I (and probably many others) don't want to use the external apps to see if it's the time, or time-warp until the planets align. I want to fly my SSTO missions and have a little pop-up window saying that it's the best time to go to planet "X". "Well then! Let me just put this sucker into a stable orbit and go building a Jool-worthy probe!" I know there's KAC and TWP, but I don't want to re-download it everytime a new patch comes out, because it's broken for some reason.

[Red Iron Crown]

Interplanetary travel is tough if you don't use mods or external tools, and it's time consuming to discover how to do it efficiently by trial and error. I strongly agree that some sort of in-game aid is in order.

Alshain's right that it shouldn't be the optimal window only, though. Some way of showing graphically when it's more efficient to transfer might be better. Maybe color the orbital path of a targeted body, with blue being a less costly transfer point and red being more costly, with a spectrum between. A bit easier to grasp than a proper pork chop plot.

[Alshain]

Well, if you don't want to waste fuel or don't use the interstellar mod with all that warp and high-ISP engines then, like me, you want to have a "DING!" report saying that it is time to perform an interplanetary mission. What you are implying is that it would somehow force you to make the transfer burns, because it's optimal. I want to only KNOW when it's the best time to do that.

Also I (and probably many others) don't want to use the external apps to see if it's the time, or time-warp until the planets align. I want to fly my SSTO missions and have a little pop-up window saying that it's the best time to go to planet "X". "Well then! Let me just put this sucker into a stable orbit and go building a Jool-worthy probe!" I know there's KAC and TWP, but I don't want to re-download it everytime a new patch comes out, because it's broken for some reason.

You are kind of missing the point though. You don't need interstellar mod to fly to Jool outside of the most optimal fuel window. I just planned a mission to Duna, I could have waited a year for the absolute most optimal launch window at 1700dV but I found one only 30 days out that got me there with 3000dV (roughly the same travel time) using the tool I linked above. I guess the question is, what is optimal.. to you? Personally I like to not waste a lot of time to save a little fuel, optimal to me would be launching in 30 days instead of 250.

Having one little bell for that 1700dV mark would only service a small number who wait on those perfect windows that only come around once a year. I'm not saying we don't need a tool to plan interplanetary burns, I'm just saying a simple alarm clock isn't enough and would be a waste of time to develop.

By the way, most space agencies have graphs like the one that tool shows you. I forget the name of them, but it's not just something that mod created.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Alshain

[Wjolcz]

Guess you're right, Alshain. That's kind of what I mean when talking about red-green-red transition. It would slowly change it's colour as the optimal transfer comes closer and gets away.

And by optimal I mean the least dV needed to perform the transfer.

EDIT: It doesn't have to be re-green-red, of course. Just something to know it's getting closer.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Veeltch

[klgraham1013]

It would seem like a good idea, but why would Squad define my transfer window? The concept of a transfer window is arbitrary. If you want to go to Jool, you can go any time you want, it just might cost you more fuel or take longer to get there to go now rather than later. So at what level of fuel savings and travel time defines the beginning and end of a "transfer window"? That shouldn't be decided by Squad.

Transfer Window Planner lets you choose your own window based on your own criteria. You can choose how long you want the round trip to be and how much fuel you want to spend in your own planning stages. I suggest you give it a look.

Transfer Window Planner has been a great asset in this regard.

[Alshain]

Guess you're right, Alshain. That's kind of what I mean when talking about red-green-red transition. It would slowly change it's colour as the optimal transfer comes closer and gets away.

And by optimal I mean the least dV needed to perform the transfer.

And that would work if it were a 2 dimensional graph where only dV and departure date mattered, but there is a 3rd dimension... travel time. Some players idea of optimal is getting there as fast as possible once the launch occurs. The balance between the 3 is why you have these strange multi-colored shapes form in the transfer planner. Each player is going to different. Some may sacrifice travel time for dV, other may sacrifice launch date for travel time. The graphs in that tool show all of it so you can decide.

You do need to combine it with something like Precise Node, which shows you departure date, ejection angle, and ejection inclination for your maneuver node. If you can make your node match what the transfer planner shows, you have it easy from there.

It would be nice to have all this in game without mods of course.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Alshain

[tater]

You are kind of missing the point though. You don't need interstellar mod to fly to Jool outside of the most optimal fuel window. I just planned a mission to Duna, I could have waited a year for the absolute most optimal launch window at 1700dV but I found one only 30 days out that got me there with 3000dV (roughly the same travel time) using the tool I linked above. I guess the question is, what is optimal.. to you? Personally I like to not waste a lot of time to save a little fuel, optimal to me would be launching in 30 days instead of 250.

Having one little bell for that 1700dV mark would only service a small number who wait on those perfect windows that only come around once a year. I'm not saying we don't need a tool to plan interplanetary burns, I'm just saying a simple alarm clock isn't enough and would be a waste of time to develop.

By the way, most space agencies have graphs like the one that tool shows you. I forget the name of them, but it's not just something that mod created.

You seem to be missing the point. You used a tool. So only people who know of the tool, or go here, or google it should get to know?

Why would that tool not be available to the player---any player?

THAT is the point, that the tools should be included.

For new players in career, I think it would be great to let them know when an optimum window is, in fact. They are limited in parts, and it offers the best chance at success since they might have some extra dv to play with.

[Alshain]

You seem to be missing the point. You used a tool. So only people who know of the tool, or go here, or google it should get to know?

Why would that tool not be available to the player---any player?

THAT is the point, that the tools should be included.

For new players in career, I think it would be great to let them know when an optimum window is, in fact. They are limited in parts, and it offers the best chance at success since they might have some extra dv to play with.

No, I'm not missing that point, I'm just saying a simple alarm clock that was the original suggestion won't do it. I fully agree we need that tool in the stock game, you just can't water it down or it is going to be worthless.

It doesn't have to be that mod exactly, but it has to be that kind of graph (I REALLY wish I could remember it's name)

Edited January 28, 2015 by Alshain

[tater]

Squad has typically said they don't want to give to much data, however. That is why a mission might be a good way. Or Werner or Linus popping up within a few weeks of a good window and mentioning that an efficient time to launch to Duna is coming up. Another might do the same for shortest transit time (vs lowest dv).

I think ANY such planner is better than none, even if it only points at the optimum window, it need only say that this is the time when you need the least fuel/dv to get to the target, vs the rest of the year when it is possible, but less efficient.

Perhaps the tracking station could have a "mission planner" area where you place an orbit, then get to add nodes to it, and check the dv needed there.

[Joonatan1998]

Unless life support/other time based mechanics are added I think in the stock game it should just show the lowest dV window.

Time only matters for roleplaying and mods. (and very rarely contracts)

[nholzric]

I think the biggest difficulty in planning interplanetary transfers is how fidgety maneuver nodes are.

If I could place a maneuver node on Kerbin's orbit then I could slide it forwards or backwards along Kerbin's orbit looking for a good transfer. This sliding is easy to do since it's a coarse adjustment over an entire Kerbin year. Currently you can slide the node around your own orbit whose period is much smaller than a year - and even this is difficult to do if zoomed out enough to see your target planet.

Once you placed a maneuver node in Kerbin's orbit at the right place the trick would be translating that information into a maneuver for your ship around Kerbin. There might be a clever way to turn the Kerbin node into a target for your ships maneuver. But even if this translation wasn't done, at least you would have a better idea about the timing.

[tater]

I think in general the contract time constraints need to be massively tightened, though. None the less, you are probably right WRT most play, sans LS.

Regarding nodes, the point is simply to let players, particularly new players, know how to eyeball likely times for reasonable dv transfers.

[basic.syntax]

+1 to tater's comment. I think some hints about launch windows for stock game would be a great idea, and possibly the amount or accuracy of info, should tie into tracking station upgrade level. I know I can plot and start a burn at any time, but the dV cost might be enormous, if its not optimal. I don't use too many mods, I don't want it all handed to me - so I don't always know what I'm getting into.

I've come to love destinations with aerobraking, that makes capture practically free... but if the destination doesn't have an atmosphere... cancelling out your non-optimal dV at the destination takes some experimenting (cough, reload, cough) and going back to the VAB to figure out how you're going to change things around to add more parts, when you were already at your career-mode max parts limit

[Beachernaut]

I agree with something to assist you inside the game. How that should be introduced or handled, I have no idea.

My first trip to Duna was a complete disaster over several attempts. I had no idea about transfer windows and how much difference it can make. I finally came here to the forums and did a bit of googling and learned. After a couple thousand hours playing this game, I still consult a phase angle calculator when planning missions.

IMO it's part of that "Not too realistic/easy to keep the game fun" idea that Squad keeps mentioning. Figuring out transfer windows in game with no help right now is likely to frustrate players to the point of rage quitting. "Why did they put other planets in the game, they are impossible to get to!".

Edited January 28, 2015 by Beachernaut

[tater]

The other thing is that since you see the position on the map, you learn the relationship that works. Once you do a munar transfer, guessing even without maneuver nodes is actually pretty easy.

[SaturnV]

There's no transfer *window* technically, just a balanced trade off.

90 days to target but you need 6000 ÃŽâ€v, or 180 days but 4700 ÃŽâ€v only, or 100 days & 5000 ÃŽâ€v but you need to wait 3 years before launch.

How can Squad tell which is the best *window* for every player?

[vexx32]

Generally speaking, the best window is the one that requires the least ÃŽâ€V, within maybe 10% or so to give players a bit of a chance to launch and get into orbit without fretting too much about the time.

[SaturnV]

Generally speaking, the best window is the one that requires the least ÃŽâ€V, within maybe 10% or so to give players a bit of a chance to launch and get into orbit without fretting too much about the time.

True, generally. But it may mislead players that have plenty ÃŽâ€v and want to travel as fast as possible or take off as early as possible.

So I think it's more reasonablethat ksp provides this feature through a mod rather than giving a vague indication itself. The mod Transfer Window Planner, which I had installed long ago, provides detailed information about the transfer, suits all kind of need: lowest ÃŽâ€v? Fastest trajectory? Launch ASAP? TWP have all you want.

Thus I don't think ksp itself need something like a single-purposed indication, waste of time of devs, worse than just make TWP stock. Further, if Squad really implemented some indication, then they must inform players detailed data like ejection angle and departure date, or that indication will result useless. AFAIK Squad want to ‘hide all numbers behind to reduce the complication‘, so such kind of thing is not likely their way.

However interplanetary travel IS difficult currently, there should be a way to help stock players, but that indication won‘t do the trick I suppose.

[SorryDave]

I think a pork chop style tool would be useful to have, one that displays delta V vs. date.

This would be useful even for those who like to burn a large amount of delta-v to launch earlier.

A simple indicator would be the best approach for stock, it would not make anyone do anything and lowest delta V is a standard and reasonable requirement for most every space planner.

Mods exist for planning other transfers.