Fixing the Dirt Runway - Traction

[Alshain]

I just had an idea to fix the (currently) first level runway. The problem is KSP can't really simulate a plane on a bumpy runway. It's a little too difficult because the slightest bump makes the plane go everywhere, it's a little too extreme. What is worse is it is early level which is when beginners theoretically would be learning.

My suggestion is simple. Flatten the runway, or at least severely reduce the bumps, but as an incentive to upgrade, add less traction to the wheels on that runway and scale it more traction with each surfacing upgrade. What this would mean is the plane would need more distance to get up to speed because the plane can't grip the surfacing as well. Loose dirt is slippery, if you were to add a grass runway for the upcoming tier 1, that would be even more slippery. For small planes this would be fine because they have plenty of time, larger planes might have trouble getting up to speed before getting to the end of the runway. (Of course really large planes wouldn't be able to launch at all due to the other restriction). Furthermore, landing would become more challenging because you wouldn't be able to stop as quickly, but it wouldn't be near impossibility like the current dirt runway.

Rather than the bumps which don't play nice with the KSP/Keyboard flying, you should consider this for the different levels of runway.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Alshain

[CaptRobau]

Good idea. Might be a good idea to couple this with adding traction to all terrain types. The sands of Duna or the ice of Minmus should feel different when moving across it.

[Alshain]

Good idea. Might be a good idea to couple this with adding traction to all terrain types. The sands of Duna or the ice of Minmus should feel different when moving across it.

Agreed! Making the "unclipped" grass have less traction would also be a deterrent for landing on the flat area around the KSC and simply taxiing to the runway. Probably the easiest way to do that would be to apply a traction value to each biome. If I'm not mistaken, the actual traction work has to be handled in the wheel code, so just make them slip a little more based on what biome they are landed at and if the biome is a runway detect it's tier.

It could work for rovers too! Different wheels could have different traction multipliers.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Alshain

[tomf]

It doesn't make sense for the friction of the runway to affect the takeoff of a plane. The engies are pushing against the air and exhaust gasses not the ground so it will accelerate at exactly the same rate no matter the traction. Wher it will make a difference is in landing where the wheel brakes are trying to bring the craft to a halt.

[Starwhip]

The big black wheels DO have more traction than the beige Moon Rover ones. So traction values are possible.

[Chris_2]

It doesn't make sense for the friction of the runway to affect the takeoff of a plane. The engies are pushing against the air and exhaust gasses not the ground so it will accelerate at exactly the same rate no matter the traction. Wher it will make a difference is in landing where the wheel brakes are trying to bring the craft to a halt.

Exactly, this. This proposal does not make sense from a physics point of view. Maybe 'resistance' is meant instead of 'traction'. If the dirt runway would have more resistance/friction it would slow down the plane during takeoff.

[Sirrobert]

Enlighten an idiot here: What does traction matter when it's not the wheels that provide the speed? It's the engine that provides thrust, the wheels are only there to keep the plane up until it can fly. So what does it matter if they slide or roll?

[mattinoz]

I agree I do find it odd that sand landings aren't a lot harder in KSP than landing on a top notch runway.

And taking off from sand is not only possible but almost easy, especially on a planet with little sign of life to compact a decent surface.

I'm hoping the new "Drag" model will account for this both by increasing air resistance drag of putting the wheel down and also adding differing amounts of surface resistance drag based on the surface your landing on and how likely you are to sink into it, dig the wheels in and end the flight in a more comical KSP fashion.

[wizzlebippi]

I fully support giving deployed landing gear increased drag.

Anyway, squad should be able to give the different runway surfaces their own coefficient of friction. That would probably be enough to solve the problem. But I will have to point out that packed, grass free dirt is about the same as concrete.

[NonWonderDog]

I dunno, I kind of like the bumpy runway. I like that it's silly.

Actually, with BahamutoD's Adjustable Landing Gear, FAR, and a joystick, I don't really have any problem landing a (very small) plane on the bumpy dirt runway. I think the problem here is the suspension on the stock landing gear, not the bumps.

[TMS]

Flatten the tier 1 runway and put a brick wall at the end of all tiers.

By upgrading, you increase the probability of successfully taking off.