[Computers] Farewell, Microsoft!

[Frozen_Heart]

You've got nothing to hide right?

Well yes you have: do you want your insurance company to have access to your medical record? Do you want the police to know if you are politicaly left, right, center, anarchist? Do you want your parents to know what you like to do in bed with your girlfriend? Do you want the Torries government to know that you buy books on socialism?

And Facebook is all against those kind of secrets: it wants you transparent, that is the business model. Tell me it is not dangerous.

Well medical record: don't post it on fb, what more I don't have medical insurance as NHS.

I don't care if someone looks at my political views, If I post something about politics its because I want it known!

And why on earth would I post what my and my bf get up to on a public page!

I think the reasonable course of action if one wants to use Facebook is to treat everything posted there as public.

That's what I do on it, if I don't want people to know I won't post it.

[cicatrix]

I don't live in a forest, I use Internet (just don't provide my personal information anywhere) and the only thing I risk exposing in my smartphone is my phonebook...

I'm not speaking about dangers of social networks, really, if you don't give a s...t about your privacy that's entirely up to you. Believing that noone would have interest in you is a bit foolish, but that too - is entirely your choice.

Consider these questions however:

1) Do you trust Facebook, Google, Apple, etc enough to consider your personal information is safe?

2) Are you crystal clear before the law?

3) Do you trust your government?

4) Do you believe that you would never be of interest to secret service or criminals?

5) Are you absolutely certain that there woudn't be a leak and your information won't be open to anyone one day?

6) You have no personal ill-wishers, people who envy you, people who hate you right now probably, are you certain that this wouldn't change one day?

7) Are you absolutely certain that the information you entrust to internet companies could not in any way harm you?

8) Are you absolutely certain that the information you share to everyone would not be embarassing or harmful in the future? What if your boss reads your profile? Your competitor?

9) Same question about the rest information you have in the cloud (which is not open to everyone, or such are your delusions)?

If you have no doubts about anything then you're a lucky person.

[sumghai]

I've always presumed that a Technical Preview is to allow Microsoft to collect user feedback in the form of usage patterns and behaviours, and that they ask for personally identifiable information for demographic purposes (e.g. "Ooh, here's an American male, mid-twenties, has a Windows Live mail account linked to Xbox Live, plays Skyrim, KSP and WoW, uses Skype heavily in the evenings and the weekends where peak traffic is likely - his behaviour coincides with a signficant proportions of users frequently doing X that will often experience issue Y - how can we improve our product to fit his demographic?).

I'm sure that they'll stop collecting this data once Win 10 goes to full release later this year.

[Dodgey]

No it's not free, the price was the sweat of all the Linux community members that worked on it to make it happen. But this price is not to be payed by the user.

Ok but that's two different things, the price to the end users and the devlopment costs.

The way you phrased your statement you made it sound as if there is nothing for free to the end user. What is the difference between the sweat of the linux community and money of Microsoft, nothing. To say that Win 10 is free therefore Microsoft is up to something (costing your privvacy) is just paranoid when Linux is free as well. There are other reasons why Win 10 could be free, making sure their install base is secure after the Win 8 disaster for one.

[sumghai]

I should probably also point out that Win 10 is a free upgrade for Win 7/8/8.1 users only if they migrate during the first year of release; if you buy a new computer after that, you will have to pay to have Win 10 OEM'ed on it.

[pincushionman]

the clincher here would be if anyone here was involved with the Technical Previews of any of the previous releases would verify if such language was in any of them, vs. what was in the full release.

[LordFerret]

With regard to Microsoft: Microsoft is notorious for releasing inferior bug-ridden written-in-haste sloppy code... they wrote the book on it. I spent my entire career (over 35 years) as a computer consultant / systems analyst / applications developer / etc (wore many hats) having to deal with it, and can tell you most assuredly you never buy into the first release of anything Microsoft releases - anyone in the industry can tell you that. Windows is the sloppiest excuse for an OS there is. Remember, DOS was the OS... "Windows" was merely a GUI wrapper thrown around it. And to that effect, it still is.

Considering 90% of the people in the world out there are nothing more than "end-users", none of this makes any matter to you, because you have and enjoy and find use for the bells and whistles you've been given. Some are for it, others not. I'm not bashing anyone for it; I'm just saying that if you knew better, you'd hold a different opinion. This is why I state that we've strayed the course of this tool's potential. You've been given an illusion of 'productivity' via crafty media.

As for using social media and such for contact, I see and understand the purpose and convenience ... we've come a long way in that respect, cell phones too and what-not. I'm not against it. I too find it easier to call or send a text or leave a message on Facebook. The problem lies (IMO) in that people tend to get carried away with it, start depending on it, when really what they should do is turn the machine off and walk out the door for a change.

Edited February 12, 2015 by LordFerret

[LordFerret]

And this as of today...

[h=1]Google's bug-hunting hacker team is infuriating Microsoft and Apple[/h]

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/google-tracks-glitches-in-microsoft-apple-adobes-software-2015-2#ixzz3RZ0CXhrd

[steve_v]

Windows is the sloppiest excuse for an OS there is. Remember, DOS was the OS... "Windows" was merely a GUI wrapper thrown around it. And to that effect, it still is.

Yeah, this ^. Windows has a serious case of 'clay feet'. This, combined with the ever expanding raft of extraneous 'features' layered on top, tends to make debugging anything on Windows a complete bear. The number of times I've wished for some good ol' console debugging output and instead got a (frozen) flashy animation or a cryptic 'error code'... Grrr.

Microsoft's policy seems to be: Users are stupid. They won't notice or care about bugs, won't need to do anything too complicated... Just hide everything behind some shiny graphics, give them a few new toys and let the marketing department convince them that it's more productive. - What does windows 8 do that windows 2000 didn't, besides look nicer?

Old, old bugs go un-fixed, consumer feedback goes unread, programmers and game developers wishlists are ignored.

With each new release, new bugs are layered atop the old.

If the users don't like the way the system works it's: "this is better/progress/the way things are, just learn how to use it". I expect my systems to adapt to me, not the other way around - perhaps I'm not a 'typical' user, whatever that is.

I cringe every time I hear things like "Just re-boot it, it'll fix itself", "It probably crashed, just restart it" or "Windows needs to be re-installed when it gets slow..." Microsoft has everyone trained so well, most users simply accept that computers stop working from time to time; no explanation required. If one of my machines crashes, I expect to know why, and in great detail. I also expect to be able to fix it. Same goes for my car, fridge, home electrical system etc.

I cringe more every time a (usually new) FOSS/GNU/Linux user says something like: "It broke/I broke it, so just re-install" - Don'tcha know you can actually fix that?

I use FOSS everywhere I can. I can sometimes even make bugs get fixed, either by fixing them myself or by drawing them to the attention of developers who actually listen to the users - 'cause the developers are the users I find this far more satisfying than submitting reports to the "Microsoft Error Report" black-hole - at least I know I'm being heard, if not always taken seriously

As for the whole privacy thing, I moved all my personal/sync data onto my own 'not-a-bloody-cloud' server (in my house) years ago. Facebook is just for OTR encrypted XMPP chat and my browser runs several anti tracking/data-mining plugins. I have also ripped out and rebuilt or replaced the OS on every computing device I own, so I'm reasonably confident nobody's mining my data or keylogging me. Windows 10 can be invasive or not, I won't be using it either way.

It's not paranoia, I really have nothing to hide... I just loathe targeted advertising... And I like to learn how my gear works, in great detail, usually by dismantling it.

Edited February 13, 2015 by steve_v

[lajoswinkler]

As PakledHostage said, some of you have no bloody idea what you're playing with. Raised in free societies with plenty of resources, you take all of it for granted, and the only social kerfuffle you personally experienced is when your videogame simulates it. Hopefully you'll never experience the real thing.

BTW I'd advise you all to stop mentioning any history facts and using asterisks because you might get infractions. On this forum any historic facts are treated as "politics" and asterisks are interpreted as the worst possible hidden word.

[rtxoff]

Ok but that's two different things, the price to the end users and the devlopment costs.

The way you phrased your statement you made it sound as if there is nothing for free to the end user. What is the difference between the sweat of the linux community and money of Microsoft, nothing. To say that Win 10 is free therefore Microsoft is up to something (costing your privvacy) is just paranoid when Linux is free as well. There are other reasons why Win 10 could be free, making sure their install base is secure after the Win 8 disaster for one.

Cool story bro, keep using Windows, i really don't care. I won't. Windows is dying and Microsoft is very well aware of that, this is just an desperate attempt to save it. The market for desktop PC's is shrinking and their aggressive way of selling Windows by bundling it with the hardware is giving less and less profit.

I for one will try to migrate my life completely to Linux cause:

.) it is free

Well ok Win10 will be too but only for a year and only for upgrading legit Win7 or 8

.) it is made by scientists or at least comes out of this world (UNIX, universities)

Windows is made by people that look like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5e/Microsoft-Staff-1978.jpg

.) it is open source and you can modifiy every aspect of it if you like

Windows 10 is closed source, and you do not have the slightest clue what it is doing or not under the hood

.) you are not forced to upgrade it every few years because a company won't give you updates for it

.) modifying major aspects of your hardware won't cry for annoying key verification or warnings on the screen

.) installing developer enviroments is as easy as saying cake

this is often very painful under Windows often needing to download and install plenty od addition software manually one by one

.) installing server software is also easy as saying cake (Apache, SQL, PHP and so on)

this is often very painful under Windows often needing to download and install plenty od addition software manually one by one

.) it's running very stable for long timespans (years)

Windows will have stability problems for longer periods (months)

Windows Server might be better in this but it is very expensive

.) there are no annoying tiles, appstores, viruses(almost none)

Total insanity what is happening on Windows regarding this, users are forced to install AV software which often takes away plenty of resources.

Their new Windows appstore they want to force on the users is an absolute impudence. Looks like next step is to only allow the apps from appstore and no other software anymore.

.) you can choose between many different desktop enviroments suited for your taste / hardware (KDE, Gnome, Cinnamon, LXDE and so on...)

Win7 users where forced into a new GUI (no more old start menue) , what was the problem to leave the option for the old way?

Win8 users where forced into a tile Desktop nobody wanted (Microsoft are you serious? What was the problem to leave the option for the old way?)

Win10 users will have the start menue back but with tiles. (no comment)

.) OS sytem updates and patches are painless and fast

Windows updates are slow as snails. Microsoft are you serious? Installing a 20MB patch for 10 minutes and then you force a restart?

What in the world is happening with the update system that it takes so long updating?

I consider myself a professional user and i want to be in control of the system and not the OS controlling me. So Windows is definitely a no go for me.

The only 2 arguments that might be left in favour for Windows are Gaming and easy of use. And this 2 arguments are fading away slowly. More and more games are offered for Linux too and the easy use of the system has much improved over the years.

You still not convinced? Well then you are definitely a Windows fanboy or have very limited cognitive abilities and/or you are troll, there is no other explaination for beeing that much in favour of such an greedy company.

[Red Iron Crown]

Windows is made by people that look like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5e/Microsoft-Staff-1978.jpg

Most of your arguments are fine, but this one is spurious. That pic is from the seventies and their appearance is relatively stylish for the time. And the appearance of the original Linux developers is not exactly something to cite as an advantage.

[Dodgey]

gpisic I fail to see how we got to this from Microsoft giving Win 10 to Win 7&8 users during the first year of release but in anycase. Look I honestly agree with you that Linux is a brilliant piece of software, it has a lot of things going for it, unfortunately it isn't the OS I am currently using, therefor changing everything I have over to Linux is not worth it for me at this time. It is more convenient for me to keep using Win 8. Does that make me a Microsoft fan boy? I don't think so.

Now going back to what we were saying before, my issue with your statement was that you were saying that because Win 10 will be free Microsoft is being sneaky but not applying that same logic to Linux, it had nothing to do with the quality of either OS. Which as I said I agree with you, Windows is not the best but it works for me, kind of like my ute, a bit rough but gets me where I want to go.

[rtxoff]

Most of your arguments are fine, but this one is spurious. That pic is from the seventies and their appearance is relatively stylish for the time. And the appearance of the original Linux developers is not exactly something to cite as an advantage.

It was meant as an joke , ok i should have marked it as one, my bad.

[Umlüx]

Cool story bro, keep using Windows, i really don't care. I won't. Windows is dying and Microsoft is very well aware of that, this is just an desperate attempt to save it. The market for desktop PC's is shrinking and their aggressive way of selling Windows by bundling it with the hardware is giving less and less profit.

I for one will try to migrate my life completely to Linux cause:

.) it is free

only if your time is free too. if you want to do more than just browsing the internet, you have to do more. driver problems, software compatibility and so on.. some programs i use are simply non existant on *nix

.) it is made by scientists or at least comes out of this world (UNIX, universities)

yeaahh.. because He is that much cooler http://www.thelinuxdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/linus1991.jpg

.) it is open source and you can modifiy every aspect of it if you like

..if you know how to do it. until you are there, you have to invest massive amounts of time and work.

.) you are not forced to upgrade it every few years because a company won't give you updates for it

yeah. who needs those new features anyway? my 10 year old kernel is fine the way it is!

.) modifying major aspects of your hardware won't cry for annoying key verification or warnings on the screen

true. but it may cry for special drivers, librarys, modified configs or a new kernel.

.) installing developer enviroments is as easy as saying cake

it comes down on what you want to use. there are more than enough easy to use, one klick install SDK's and ISE's

.) installing server software is also easy as saying cake (Apache, SQL, PHP and so on)

again.. depends on what you want to use. WAMP is as easy as LAMP

.) it's running very stable for long timespans (years)

again those horror storys from Win9x time. I know of several XP and 2k systems that ran for years or are still running.

.) there are no annoying tiles, appstores, viruses(almost none)

i can't find any of those things on my Win7 system, sorry.

.) you can choose between many different desktop enviroments suited for your taste / hardware (KDE, Gnome, Cinnamon, LXDE and so on...)

partially true. but like linux, you can mod your windows desktop too. at least partially

.) OS sytem updates and patches are painless and fast

partially true. but they definately got faster with less reboots required over the years.

i am not saying linux is bad. nor am i saying windows is the ultimative OS. i work as a sys admin and i use both. and linux is nowhere making my life easier. and as i said, some important things are just not running on linux.

[cicatrix]

This discussion is about privacy, not windows/linux holywar. At least linux is not peeking at me.

From the ongoing trends I observe, I can speculate that being offline is soon going to become a privilege you would have to pay for. You MUST consume in order to keep the economy going, you must buy new gadgets and throw away your year-old ones to keep the industry afloat, nobody is interested in reliability and prolonged operation. You MUST watch advertisements and click 'like' buttons. If you refuse - you are a paranoid, maybe a criminal even. An outcast that has no place in the modern society.

[Umlüx]

welcome to the future

where everything keeps getting simpler and better and faster.. but you need a master degree to really use it responsibly.

it doesnt matter what base system you are using as long as every service you use keeps spying on you.

edit:

there is a way to break out of this system. but this would mean work. current services are working that well because they are convenient. and everybody loves convenient things.

we would have to start and do things our own. break the centralized structures and start using distributed services. maybe build our own DHT networks with independent nodes so that nobody could control it all.

but for now, thats only a bedtime story. who would want to give up the convenience of google and dropbox for i.e. yacy and owncloud...

Edited February 13, 2015 by Umlüx

[cicatrix]

we would have to start and do things our own.

Rrrrrevolution! See what I mean? You're a criminal!

[LordFerret]

Most of your arguments are fine, but this one is spurious. That pic is from the seventies and their appearance is relatively stylish for the time. And the appearance of the original Linux developers is not exactly something to cite as an advantage.

Since we're posting pictures... here are some real computer geeks, the kind I dealt with daily lol.....

A very old argument - "looks don't count, brains do" ... but in the corporate world, appearance is everything..... it can make all the difference in world as far as your getting your foot in the door in the first place, no matter how smart you are (unless you're lucky and someone looks beyond the appearance to the talent).

[Cydonian Monk]

That pic is from the seventies and their appearance is relatively stylish for the time.

Looks like my office today. Heck, with that haircut that dude in the lower left could even be me. (Though at the moment I look more like the dude in the lower right.) All things considered I'd rather have their money than their looks....

You MUST consume in order to keep the economy going, you must buy new gadgets and throw away your year-old ones to keep the industry afloat, nobody is interested in reliability and prolonged operation. .... If you refuse - you are a paranoid, maybe a criminal even. An outcast that has no place in the modern society.

Say what you want about the movie THX-1138, but George Lucas nailed this point exactly.

"Always on" things bug me. Windows 10 looks bad, but not really much worse than Windows 8 (which is already tied to a Live account). OS-X and Ubuntu are no better about it either. Even the iPad, arguably the most mobile computer I've used, has some basic features that just refuse to work if it isn't connected to the internet. (Oh, you want to edit a documemt from a fileserver on the local network? Sorry, I have to report that back to Cupertino first.)

I kinda gave up caring about absolute privacy long ago, and largely because I saw the value of the Web. It's a trade-off that'll probably bite us all in the backside, but it's essential to my job and my way of life. And yet there's still a part of me that wants to run off to Montana or Alaska and disappear.....

[cicatrix]

I don't see any tradeoff. I use the web daily, I get what I need and still I keep it private. If some service requests my 'real' name I found out that John Smith fits perfectly

[LordFerret]

Not to get into politics, because I know it's quite forbidden here, but I'm compelled to throw this into the ring because it does relate to the discussion... so maybe the moderators will forgo this one considering the relevance and importance?

Here in the US, and in conjunction with the UN, new 'global' laws are on the verge of becoming reality where regulation and control of the internet will affect every one of you. Call it a marriage between big business (the providers) and governments (UN regulators). "Net Neutrality" is in danger. How do you all feel about this? Are you ready to be dictated to about what you can and can't do on the web?... about what sites and activities you can visit and perform?... about how much storage you'll be allowed?... about how much time and bandwidth you'll be allotted?... about the kind, type, and quantities of hardware you can own?... and many other aspects, especially monetary - with each and every thing you do becoming taxable.

[Red Iron Crown]

Please tread a bit carefully here. Discussion of the relative privacy of different OSes and other application platforms is fine. Discussion of the trend toward ever-more regulation and control is headed toward Bad Places, so please be careful not to get into discussing specific countries or governments. Aside from that, I agree that it is an important issue that is worth talking about.

[steve_v]

This discussion is about privacy, not windows/linux holywar. At least linux is not peeking at me.

From the ongoing trends I observe, I can speculate that being offline is soon going to become a privilege you would have to pay for. You MUST consume in order to keep the economy going, you must buy new gadgets and throw away your year-old ones to keep the industry afloat, nobody is interested in reliability and prolonged operation. You MUST watch advertisements and click 'like' buttons. If you refuse - you are a paranoid, maybe a criminal even. An outcast that has no place in the modern society.

Exactly, and I for one don't like where this is heading. I'm not trying for an OS holy war either, so here's my privacy angle:

Computing privacy is inextricably linked to software freedom.

GNU/Linux (or BSD) is better than Windows (or MacOS for that matter) because free software respects your freedom. That includes the freedom to not be spied upon or advertised at. GNU/Linux is just the current poster-child for the free software philosophy.

My main beef with Microsoft, among others, is that it's part of the buisiness model to keep consumers from understanding the gadgets they buy, or modifying them to work as they actually want them to work. If you could fix the bugs yourself, why would you fork-out for the upgrade?

Why must we all buy new gadgets every year, simply because we can't replace the parts that wear out or improve the code to do new things?

If you bought the hardware you should be free to do whatever you want with it, without a by-your-leave from MS or anyone else, and without telling them where you buy your bog-roll.

It's insidious - big technology companies are training a generation of people who have no idea how the devices they rely on actually work, and filling our homes with machines that work for the manufacturer more than they work for us.

Information is power, every time you are forced to give away your information you are effectively paying to use your own equipment.

Windows 10 sure ain't free if you pay in information, GNU/Linux is free because people want to be free, and enough of those people can code

Free sharing of designs and code fosters innovation, and it's how this whole IT revolution got started in the first place.

Far too many devices already come with remote-brick backdoors, restrictive DRM or built-in spyware. Microsoft has been doing it for years - only now they're telling you about it

Even Ubuntu tried it, sort of - but it's open-source so the code got pulled by everyone who didn't like the idea. The rub is that you can't do that with a closed OS.

Microsoft spying in a tech preview is small fry, and it's nothing new. But do you trust them to take that keylogger out for the release? How will you know if you can't see the code?

Proprietary code everywhere means you will be assimilated. It means you must conform. I'm pretty sure this is not a good thing.

It's the thin end of the wedge.

welcome to the future

...

There is a way to break out of this system. but this would mean work.

The way is FOSS/GNU, and many hands make light work. Also several complete operating systems

The work has already begun. If you have the skills, feel free to pitch in

...

who would want to give up the convenience of google and dropbox for i.e. yacy and owncloud...

Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt.

Edit: Yup, I thought as much. My local pizza delivery is trying to canvas fingerprint my browser. The internet is broken.

Edited February 13, 2015 by steve_v

[LordFerret]

This discussion is about privacy, not windows/linux holywar. At least linux is not peeking at me.

From the ongoing trends I observe, I can speculate that being offline is soon going to become a privilege you would have to pay for. You MUST consume in order to keep the economy going, you must buy new gadgets and throw away your year-old ones to keep the industry afloat, nobody is interested in reliability and prolonged operation. You MUST watch advertisements and click 'like' buttons. If you refuse - you are a paranoid, maybe a criminal even. An outcast that has no place in the modern society.

I have to disagree with some of this. Basic economics tells you that you must produce to keep the economy going ... you cannot all just consume. That means: Industry... and not outsourced industry either. If you have no industry, you produce nothing... there will be no gain, just slow eventual loss. Services and Beyonce' as a part of your GDP are not a substitute for industry, try as you might. Industry is the cornerstone of a successful economic system.

And, people ARE interested in reliability and prolonged operation ... one only need to look at the concept of 'planned obsolescence' with the automotive industry to see the truth in that, to see where that went. lol

I find the privacy issue interesting. I discuss it with a lot of people I know, from all walks of life. My general impression is that people live with a jaded view, that they're only bothered with such when it affects them personally. Well, I believe that time will come soon, and it will come as a rude awakening.