Modding Monday: Kerbal Research & Development!

[Cornholio]

6 minutes ago, nobodyhasthis2 said:

What last tech node would that be?

Are you suggesting we get forced into an agreement on that as well.  The base line is not balanced and neither is the tech tree. People should have freedom of choice on how that is modified. If we get forced into using this. A mod will have to be created to remove it again to allow for freedom of choice.

 

 

Whichever is the very last one that your game save has not yet researched.  So, as soon as there is 100% completion of the tree, no matter what tech you researched last, this function becomes active.

[nobodyhasthis2]

13 minutes ago, Cornholio said:

Whichever is the very last one that your game save has not yet researched.  So, as soon as there is 100% completion of the tree, no matter what tech you researched last, this function becomes active.

Nope. That is the stock tech tree. I don't use that. I am not forced into using it. Multiple routes here. Set it so can't be unlocked. So your advocating a waste of memory here through the modification of something that does not exist.

There is no agreed baseline.

[Cornholio]

The logic applies to other tech trees too:

 

If zero researchable nodes exist, then apply this R&D function

[nobodyhasthis2]

5 hours ago, Cornholio said:

The logic applies to other tech trees too:

 

If zero researchable nodes exist, then apply this R&D function

No the logic utterly fails again. I don't have stock R&D functions either. I have 110 mods in play. Do you really want to keep putting in conditional statements to get around them all? 

Good that gives me more ways to block this if it does become stock. As a mod this comes with two important options. Take it or leave it.

 

Edited February 3, 2016 by nobodyhasthis2

[legoclone09]

We can use something similar to what RealFuels uses, it has a GUI that can change stats of engines. E might be able to make it cost Science as well as Funds and have multiple variants.

[Daveroski]

12 hours ago, Alshain said:

Are you asking or telling?  Because I never said a single thing about real life.  This is a game.  You know, a simulated interactive environment?
 

Exactly how it is supposed to be.  If you could slap any series parts together with out any consideration of what you are doing and it would work, well that wouldn't be a very fun game.  If a design doesn't work, build a better design, that is how you play the game.

Don't get me wrong, it is a very cool mod, and that is what it should be, a mod.

 

I was asking. The question mark was the clue. When used at the end of a sentence they show an interrogative.

In the first part of your first statement above you used it correctly. I knew that you were asking me a question for which a response was required.

The second and third part of your first statement was pointless because I can read back and see for myself what was written.

The last part of your first statement has a question mark. This is curious because it seems to be querying my ability to tell the difference between reality and simulation. You couldn't possibly be doing that though because that would be insulting to me and you have no grounds to be insulting.

I completely disagree with the first part of your second statement and I mean completely as in, I have the exact opposite opinion.

If this mod allowed one to do what you are suggesting in the second part of your second statement then I certainly would not use it. Thankfully it doesn't do that at all and so that statement is also pointless. The last part of your second statement also seems to be making unfounded assumptions about my intelligence and so I will ignore that one too.

Suffice to say that almost all the parts available in stock are designed for a specific role. There are no upgraded parts of previous parts in the tree. We will use parts from the very fist stage of the tree all the way through the game. Not particularly because that is the right part for the job but because it is the closest part to the one you actually would like to have for the job.

Perhaps you could ask yourself this. Why is the Gemini capsule not still in regular use today?

I know that you are not an idiot and can grasp the similarities between real life and the game and that one would expect similar progression of improvements to parts. I know that you must be aware that parts are upgraded until such a time that upgrading them becomes prohibitively expensive until such a time as a new and better designed part can be made.

Because I know that you know all this, this is why most of what you have said seems strange and argumentative to me.

You are not an idiot who feels that having a system such as this in game with options in the menu for its availability and use would be a game-breaking design idea for any player.

You see, I always assume people are not idiots until they give me cause to believe otherwise.

[Temeter]

16 hours ago, StrandedonEarth said:

Sounds like a great use for science once the tree is finished. However, I would think the most realistic improvement for most parts would be shaving mass. For engines, besides reducing weight, the thrust could be increased (Falcon 9 Full-Thrust anyone?) but improving the ISP would be very difficult IRL.

I'll get around to mucking with this mod some day.

Improving ISP is perfectly possible IRL, even if usually in small steps. Speaking about the Falcon 9, it's engine evolution is a quite good example of how ISP, weight and thrust can be substantially modified over an engines lifespan. Early rocket development is generally even more variable.

You do get to a point where it starts getting harder and harder to improve, but complicated machines like rockets do leave a lot of areas to work on.

[Cornholio]

11 hours ago, nobodyhasthis2 said:

No the logic utterly fails again. I don't have stock R&D functions either. I have 110 mods in play. Do you really want to keep putting in conditional statements to get around them all? 

Good that gives me more ways to block this if it does become stock. As a mod this comes with two important options. Take it or leave it.

 

It's the same conditional statement. 

Regardless, you are quite headstrong in simply disagreeing with me so that nothing I can say will change your view.

 

For what it's worth, I play with many mods also, R&D not being one of them, but not a single one of the ones that I have implemented would have crossover or altered functionality if something like this were implemented post-techtree stock.  I'll give the benefit of the doubt that there might exist one that would.  The only case where my 'conditional statement' would not work is in a tech tree where a tech nodes are never fully unlocked.

[Alshain]

8 hours ago, Daveroski said:

I was asking. The question mark was the clue. When used at the end of a sentence they show an interrogative.

In the first part of your first statement above you used it correctly. I knew that you were asking me a question for which a response was required.

The second and third part of your first statement was pointless because I can read back and see for myself what was written.

The last part of your first statement has a question mark. This is curious because it seems to be querying my ability to tell the difference between reality and simulation. You couldn't possibly be doing that though because that would be insulting to me and you have no grounds to be insulting.

I completely disagree with the first part of your second statement and I mean completely as in, I have the exact opposite opinion.

If this mod allowed one to do what you are suggesting in the second part of your second statement then I certainly would not use it. Thankfully it doesn't do that at all and so that statement is also pointless. The last part of your second statement also seems to be making unfounded assumptions about my intelligence and so I will ignore that one too.

Suffice to say that almost all the parts available in stock are designed for a specific role. There are no upgraded parts of previous parts in the tree. We will use parts from the very fist stage of the tree all the way through the game. Not particularly because that is the right part for the job but because it is the closest part to the one you actually would like to have for the job.

Perhaps you could ask yourself this. Why is the Gemini capsule not still in regular use today?

I know that you are not an idiot and can grasp the similarities between real life and the game and that one would expect similar progression of improvements to parts. I know that you must be aware that parts are upgraded until such a time that upgrading them becomes prohibitively expensive until such a time as a new and better designed part can be made.

Because I know that you know all this, this is why most of what you have said seems strange and argumentative to me.

You are not an idiot who feels that having a system such as this in game with options in the menu for its availability and use would be a game-breaking design idea for any player.

You see, I always assume people are not idiots until they give me cause to believe otherwise.

Sorry for the confusion man, no offense was intended.  It's just that if you spend enough time on the forums you will see that 'realism' is often used as an excuse for why game breaking mechanics should be introduced. I'm all for realism as long as it isn't at the expense of the game.  So it is hard to not see that every time now.  Suffice to say, I still believe this would be game breaking (balance wise).  I don't think either of us is going to convince the other at this point, but I just wanted to clear up and apologize if I sounded too curt.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Alshain

[nobodyhasthis2]

5 hours ago, Cornholio said:

It's the same conditional statement. 

Regardless, you are quite headstrong in simply disagreeing with me so that nothing I can say will change your view.

 

For what it's worth, I play with many mods also, R&D not being one of them, but not a single one of the ones that I have implemented would have crossover or altered functionality if something like this were implemented post-techtree stock.  I'll give the benefit of the doubt that there might exist one that would.  The only case where my 'conditional statement' would not work is in a tech tree where a tech nodes are never fully unlocked.

Yes it is the same conditional statement  Your not going to change my mind because your keep missing the point. There is already a progression mechanic in place which people feel the need to fix. Adding on a layer of feature bloat is just more fat to trim off by modders. Just look at the other disagreements in the thread. So your advocating putting something in which needs to removed later on by a large group.

This is subjective now but It is possible to get the data on this and analyse the demographics. Which is something Squad should be doing before adding features. If the majority see this as a improvement to gameplay then some features might be incorporated. However that still will not address the disagreements around progression, realism or the economy. 

I'll give you the benefit of doubt that you forgot the earlier points about establishing a common baseline. Or the disagreements in technological progression expressed by others. So if you think that the reward for unlocking a jumpdrive at the end of tech tree is a better propeller. That is ok. I cannot say your wrong.

 

 

[Cornholio]

18 minutes ago, nobodyhasthis2 said:

Yes it is the same conditional statement  Your not going to change my mind because your keep missing the point. There is already a progression mechanic in place which people feel the need to fix. Adding on a layer of feature bloat is just more fat to trim off by modders. Just look at the other disagreements in the thread. So your advocating putting something in which needs to removed later on by a large group.

This is subjective now but It is possible to get the data on this and analyse the demographics. Which is something Squad should be doing before adding features. If the majority see this as a improvement to gameplay then some features might be incorporated. However that still will not address the disagreements around progression, realism or the economy. 

I'll give you the benefit of doubt that you forgot the earlier points about establishing a common baseline. Or the disagreements in technological progression expressed by others. So if you think that the reward for unlocking a jumpdrive at the end of tech tree is a better propeller. That is ok. I cannot say your wrong.

 

 

I definitely agree with you that any incorporation should have some sort of weight from the community either for or against. 

When it comes to the reasoning as to why it should or should not (technology, realism, etc.) I tend towards anything supported by realism, but can absolutely appreciate both sides to the argument.  My original comment on this was simply that this could very easily be incorporated in the game while respecting the current baseline parts and progression mechanic of the tech tree by just adding on AFTER the tech tree is finished.

When it comes to feature bloat or specific groups of modders that would turn off a stock feature, I guess it really depends on if you view KSP as a skeleton game intended to be added to and amended to cater to your own preference of gameplay or as a complete game in and of itself.

[nobodyhasthis2]

2 hours ago, Cornholio said:

I definitely agree with you that any incorporation should have some sort of weight from the community either for or against. 

When it comes to the reasoning as to why it should or should not (technology, realism, etc.) I tend towards anything supported by realism, but can absolutely appreciate both sides to the argument.  My original comment on this was simply that this could very easily be incorporated in the game while respecting the current baseline parts and progression mechanic of the tech tree by just adding on AFTER the tech tree is finished.

You suggested the answer was to introduce it after the tech tree. Without addressing the point that there is a community disagreement on the current baseline statistics. Arguing that it can easily be placed in still does not address the the disagreement on the current baseline statistics. 

Here is the rub

2 hours ago, Cornholio said:

When it comes to the reasoning as to why it should or should not (technology, realism, etc.) I tend towards anything supported by realism, but can absolutely appreciate both sides to the argument. 

There is the acknowledgment of an argument here. Putting this in after the tech tree is completed is not going to help the community reach a consensus on this. In fact there is a good chance it doing to be like throwing fuel on the fire.

When it comes to feature bloat or specific groups of modders that would turn off a stock feature, I guess it really depends on if how much people understand the basics of project management.  

 

Edited February 4, 2016 by nobodyhasthis2

[Cornholio]

5 minutes ago, nobodyhasthis2 said:

You suggested the answer was to introduce it after the tech tree. Without addressing the point that there is a community disagreement on the current baseline statistics. Arguing that it can easily be placed in still does not address the the disagreement on the current baseline statistics. 

Here is the rub

There is the acknowledgment of an argument here. Putting this in after the tech tree is completed is not going to help the community reach a consensus on this. In fact there is a good chance it doing to be like throwing fuel on the fire.

 

I understand all that, but the community will never come to a unanimous agreement on baseline.  It's too bad that is true as it would strengthen the game as a whole, but there will always be squabbling.  

[magnemoe]

On 1.2.2016 at 11:11 PM, Warzouz said:

This mod is very nice for solo-play as KSP is. But KSP is also about ship exchange or design exchange. If parts have different attributes, we can't really exchange ship designs as parts' specs varies.

So a good mod, but definitely not one that should become stock.

This, someone who use SSTO planes a lot is likely to have spend tonns upgrading rapiers and will often have planes who would work stock. 
Players will focus on different upgrades too making even discussing performance hard. 

But yes this mod looks very fun and makes endgame more interesting. 

[Daveroski]

One of my early ancestors was chipping away at his flint knife. He had been at it for a couple of hours and then he stopped.

"What am I doing?" he thought to himself, "I can not possibly improve my knife until I have learned everything learnable."

He never improved any of his equipment after that thought and so mankind never made it out of the stone age.

See how silly the idea is?

Put it in the options. It is ON or it is OFF. Player choice.

Then if you want it on from the beginning - Player Choice.

If you want it on when you have learned all that is learnable - Player Choice

If you don't want it on at all - Player Choice.

The level of improvement could also be customised in The Options.

No Baseline. No Pressure. Player Choice. No Problem.

[Dr.K Kerbal]

Just wondering what sort of information it gives. is it sort of like KER only for parts instead of flight information. Other than that, it looks like a great mod!!!

[magnemoe]

On 5.2.2016 at 8:51 AM, Dr.K Kerbal said:

Just wondering what sort of information it gives. is it sort of like KER only for parts instead of flight information. Other than that, it looks like a great mod!!!

Looks like it only modify the stats of the unit, no more information than today. 
KER and mechjeb should work as before as they work for moded parts. 
 

[Garibaldi2257]

I can in fact confirm that mechjeb works just fine with parts improved with KRnD.