Indigenous rights group block telescope construction

[PB666]

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/hawaii-supreme-court-voids-telescope-construction-permit-n473236

I wonder, can't a mountain be sacred and have a telescope on it, why does it have to be one or the other?

Anyway this was to be a 30 meter wide telescope making it one of the lagest ground based space observatories. 

[Nothalogh]

Time to start the Church of the Telescope

[PB666]

6 hours ago, Nothalogh said:

Time to start the Church of the Telescope

The Holy Order of Celestial Observers.

[lajoswinkler]

If they opposed to this in the first place, I'd respect it, but they were ok when the whole thing started and now they're trying to ruin the project that is under construction. Screw them.

[Albert VDS]

I heard that they are only using the religious/sacred place part to not get it build. Even the view pollution seems to be overstated as no one ever goes up there.

[Kerbart]

36 minutes ago, lajoswinkler said:

If they opposed to this in the first place, I'd respect it, but they were ok when the whole thing started and now they're trying to ruin the project that is under construction. Screw them.

They were "ok" because the TMT arranged the hearings in such a way that nobody could attend. There seems to be a misunderstanding about the reason for retracting the permit. The permit was NOT retracted because the locals were "suddenly" against it. The permit was retracted because the TMT bypassed procedures. It's totally on themselves.

[Kryten]

11 minutes ago, Albert VDS said:

I heard that they are only using the religious/sacred place part to not get it build. Even the view pollution seems to be overstated as no one ever goes up there.

 Then what's the motive?

[Hcube]

26 minutes ago, Kryten said:

 Then what's the motive?

I guess it's a place of cult...

 

[cantab]

Yeah...because this thread is ever going to be non-political...

[Tw1]

24 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

They were "ok" because the TMT arranged the hearings in such a way that nobody could attend. There seems to be a misunderstanding about the reason for retracting the permit. The permit was NOT retracted because the locals were "suddenly" against it. The permit was retracted because the TMT bypassed procedures. It's totally on themselves.

Ironic really.  While I don't know the details of this particular case, it makes me suspect they did it in such a way to try and prevent locals having any influence, whereas had they followed proper procedures, they could have saved themselves a lot of time and money. They could've been working on alternate sites.

 

It all comes down to this: Always negotiate with the locals first. Attempt to accommodate their needs. Don't try to bulldoze through people.  
If there was such a big issue, the decent thing to do is not build there. 

Sadly, seems like this site and the issues around it are complex, without an easy solution. 
 

[PB666]

2 hours ago, Kerbart said:

They were "ok" because the TMT arranged the hearings in such a way that nobody could attend. There seems to be a misunderstanding about the reason for retracting the permit. The permit was NOT retracted because the locals were "suddenly" against it. The permit was retracted because the TMT bypassed procedures. It's totally on themselves.

Thats correct, but i think you have to assume that every high peak was sacred to some village at sometime. Its not totally on themselves, but not particularly savey if they did not investigate obstructions first.  Im just not to keen on new age shamans trying to block science. 

The court did not decide in favor or against, per say, one group protested that proper order was not followed, but the court did not do this blind. 

Edited December 5, 2015 by PB666

[Scotius]

Now, now - let's keep our minds open. I believe most of us would be against building the telescope (no matter how cool) smack in the middle of breeding grounds of some endangered animals of plants, right? Spiritual beliefs of the local inhabitants are worth preserving too - they were, and still probably are a big part of their culture for hundreds of years. And now those beliefs might be endangered by our own, global culture. We shouldn't trample someones past just for the sake of our hunger for knowledge - it's counterproductive

[AngelLestat]

This is not the same than classic religions that are part of our culture and modern civilization presenting obstacles and pushing things in base of ignorance (or not proven things).

The same that nobody can demolish a building or damage a place if is proven of culture value / history / art / or attached in some way of special feelings.

Why we have the right to decide what value has this on a different culture which is placed in its original habitat?

 

But well, lets destroy the navi´s tree to obtain more unobtainium, if they complain we buy them some jeans. 

[Albert VDS]

On 12/5/2015, 1:03:35, Kryten said:

 Then what's the motive?

The same as people who are opposed to windmill, they think it will hinder their every day life.

[_Augustus_]

This is ridiculous.

There are several telescopes already on Mauna Kea, along with roads (I've been there), and they happen to have a problem with a new one midway through construction?

Why didn't they protest previous telescopes?

And regardless, it won't matter. At some point no one will care anymore and this telescope will still be put up, albeit delayed.

Edited December 6, 2015 by _Augustus_

[Kryten]

4 hours ago, Albert VDS said:

The same as people who are opposed to windmill, they think it will hinder their every day life.

Their everyday life at the top of Mauna Kea?

[wrcsubers]

On 12/5/2015, 6:38:54, Scotius said:

Now, now - let's keep our minds open. I believe most of us would be against building the telescope (no matter how cool) smack in the middle of breeding grounds of some endangered animals of plants, right? Spiritual beliefs of the local inhabitants are worth preserving too - they were, and still probably are a big part of their culture for hundreds of years. And now those beliefs might be endangered by our own, global culture. We shouldn't trample someones past just for the sake of our hunger for knowledge - it's counterproductive

We don't have to trample anything or anyone... As for Animals vs. Humans, we are talking about breeding/living/feeding grounds for animals who can't fend for themselves vs. Humans who can do all of that basically anywhere (ironically I doubt anyone would pick the top of a 14,000ft mountain on a lush tropical island to do those things at).  Humans also have the distinct advantage of complex thought. 

While I'm sure there are some that disagree, we (not as a species/race/religion/etc, but as an entire planetary unit) need to be driving our development and understanding forward.  While traditions/sacred sites are good and well, we should be able to look at something like this and say 'Isn't the telescope in the interest of the greater good of the planetary unit?'. 

I don't mean to offend anyone, but if you look at history, too many times has religion, politics or self-interest gotten in the way of valuable scientific research and findings.  We certainly haven't gotten to where we are with technology by following (to quote Monty Python) 'Outdated Imperialist Dogma'.

Edited December 8, 2015 by wrcsubers

[PB666]

19 minutes ago, wrcsubers said:

We don't have to trample anything or anyone... As for Animals vs. Humans, we are talking about breeding/living/feeding grounds for animals who can't fend for themselves vs. Humans who can do all of that basically anywhere (ironically I doubt anyone would pick the top of a 14,000ft mountain on a lush tropical island to do those things at).  Humans also have the distinct advantage of complex thought. 

While I'm sure there are some that disagree, we (not as a species/race/religion/etc, but as an entire planetary unit) need to be driving our development and understanding forward.  While traditions/sacred sites are good and well, we should be able to look at something like this and say 'Isn't the telescope in the interest of the greater good of the planetary unit?'. 

I don't mean to offend anyone, but if you look at history, too many times has religion, politics or self-interest gotten in the way of valuable scientific research and findings.  We certainly haven't gotten to where we are with technology by following (to quote Monty Python) 'Outdated Imperialist Dogma'.

So we need to keep a mountain top in hawaii free of technology so that ethnic hawaiins can breed in peace? I dont get your point; is a rather interesting slant on a harmless, as far as i can tell thirty meter lenses are not particularly good at spying on folks romances, unless those romances are occurring on the moon, in which case the profound lack of oxygen would be a bigger romantic hurdle. ;^)

[wrcsubers]

10 minutes ago, PB666 said:

So we need to keep a mountain top in hawaii free of technology so that ethnic hawaiins can breed in peace?

No, no , no... Quite the opposite

We need to keep a mountain top in Hawaii free of ethnic Hawaiians so we can breed technology in peace =)

Sorry for any confusion.

Edited December 8, 2015 by wrcsubers

[Albert VDS]

On 12/7/2015, 1:38:57, Kryten said:

Their everyday life at the top of Mauna Kea?

Exactly, they think it will negatively affect them but in reality they wont even notice it. Except for the construction of the telescope, which is only a one time event but it'll bring work for locals.

[Kryten]

Right, if you assume the religious objections are made up or heavily exaggerated. Given there's no compelling other motive, that assumption is nonsense.

[Green Baron]

Yeah. This thread is old. Nevertheless the last development (from yesterday) worth a note here i think.

The construction of the TMT on Hawaii has been approved (Yay !).

http://www.tmt.org/news-center/hawaii-board-land-and-natural-resources-approves-conservation-district-use-permit-build-

The other big popeye on the southern half, the E_ELT started construction earlier this year. Mirrors have been partly been cast already, instrumentation is under development.

So, right now it looks like both telescopes could see first light like planned, somewhen 2025 or so.

[tater]

A win for rationality. Huzzah!

[Scotius]

I kinda feel bad for the locals who fought against the modern science encroaching on their spiritual beliefs. But still - YAY! Hopefully new photos will bring a lot of informations about the Universe.

[tater]

I don't feel bad for anyone defending irrational ideas held true without or contrary to evidence, ever.