Adding acceleration and deceleration to the controls

[ASnogarD]

The title is not very descriptive I know...

What I mean by adding acceleration and deceleration is simply when you hit a control currently it seems to apply the controls vector at full power immediately ... if you are using Q and E to roll it spins way too fast and unrealistically, even fine controls is not quiet right.

The issue I think is that ...say for example when I press Q to roll, a value of say 50 is added immediately to the roll amount variable so you can roll at 0 or 50... by using acceleration you could add a rapidly increasing scaling amount so it will go from say 0 - 3 - 6 - 12 - 24 - 50 as you hold down the roll key so it goes into its roll more gradually rather than the quick jerky movement we currently have.

EDIT: Very important aspect I forgot to add, the controls must also apply the deceleration instead of going from whatever power it was applying to the vector to 0, or the controls will still be jerky as the roll will stop the second you let the control input go.

It does take away some response from the control, that is true but it looks more fluid and looks more realistic, and as this isnt a twitch action game its better to have nice fluid movement over instant response in my humble opinion.

It would also emulate somewhat the gradual acceleration of a joystick with analog input on our digital input keyboard.

Its a personal peeve I have with the space plane controls and to a lesser degree the rocket controls (especially small rockets or just the manned capsules which flip flop around in a very odd manner in space), even pressing CapsLock (Which is a silly key to default to) for fine controls is still jerky just less obviously so.

Edited July 28, 2013 by ASnogarD

[Sean Mirrsen]

Fine controls already does that. If your craft reacts too fast even with fine controls, then you have way too much control authority - cut down on it.

The only way to go slower than fine controls is by using trim, which is Alt+direction. Even finer controls could be possible, of course, but they'd have to be a setting in the options menu (i.e. "fine controls smoothing factor") rather than a separate mode. There are only so many buttons and so many modes possible to keep track of.

[stupid_chris]

Yeah, you described pretty much what fine controls do. If you have too much control authority even with fine controls, try cutting down on some of the sources. If you have additional reaction wheels, you can always disable them, or disable the pod's and only keep the additional ones.

[ASnogarD]

I did a quick test with the stock RavenSpear Mk 4, the fine control controls are equally jerky just not in such high increments... say instead of applying a value of 50 its simply set to 20.

Acceleration and Deceleration would smooth out the jerky movement and let the plane look a lot smoother and... more plane like, I aint a pilot or physics expert here but I am pretty sure if planes were to roll like the ones in game do, the wings would simply rip off.

It shouldnt be too hard to test out in a development build I would imagine.

Edited July 28, 2013 by ASnogarD

[Sean Mirrsen]

See, the problem with the Ravenspear is that it's a small, lightweight airframe. And it has only four control surfaces, two of which are powerful wing-length ailerons that it uses for pitch. So when you tell it to roll, it uses all of those surfaces to roll, plus the reaction wheel in the pod. If we could dedicate ailerons to roll and pitch separately, like we can with FAR, this kind of "problem" wouldn't exist.

And there's a mighty big problem with acceleration/deceleration as you propose. The problem being that the new ASAS will only lock onto a heading once the control input has returned to zero. Under that system, you'll have even more lag in SAS response than you do now.

I've just tried flying the Ravenspear, and it really handles like a dream with fine controls. If you need more smoothness and precision than that, I'd suggest you get a flight stick.

[ASnogarD]

So even with fine control you didnt get the issue with the craft responding to a Q or E roll input with sudden movements ? It smoothly rolls until you stop inputting the roll command ? It doesnt jerk from position to position ? Must be my installation of KSP then because the rolls seem to jerk quiet a bit...even a tap on the keyboard makes it jerk.

The problem you describe is already an issue because of the sudden jerking nature of the controls at the moment players need to do minute corrections which cause extra inputs anyways... unless you are so pro that you can roll to precisely the correct position you want each time you use the Q and E.

My suggestion would minimize the need to constantly correct your movements and thus not changing headings all the time.

I dont get why you are so against this idea, the second I tried a plane the rolling and controls were so obviously wrong I cant believe it got out of development phase... there is no way even the most generous critic can say the plane controls are anywhere near good enough, even for a simulation lite program.

The planes rolls are too spasmodic, the rudder controls make the craft slide rather than change heading... only the pitch controls seem to do the job properly and even those are imprecise and spasmodic with or without fine controls.

(NOTE: May sound harsh but I am only trying to improve the game with my suggestions, and I can tell you the plane controls are off, feels completely wrong and one of the reasons for that is the sudden and instant change in vectors when controls are applied. )

Acceleration / deceleration would eliminate the sudden stops, the sudden change to position, grant more analogue control to the craft... by tapping you could move in gentle increments and by holding down it would rapidly accelerate to large movements, and then rapidly but not instantly stop when you stopped pressing the button.

I can only see improvement with this idea.

[Sean Mirrsen]

I know of the kind of system you mean, and I like it when it's done right, and applied right. I mostly see it in racing games for some reason. Also, whenever it exists, it exists as a setting in the options - you are given the option to tweak it to your liking. Fine Controls in KSP are already that system, they simply may be a little too quick for your liking - in which case the option to make the input as smooth as you need it would be the thing to add.

The issue is twofold here. The flight physics are as much to blame for this as the keyboard controls, and, honestly, I've flown IL-2 Sturmovik with a keyboard - the only difference is the amount of roll momentum. The most agile of fighters in IL-2 will respond sharply to keyboard input, sharp enough to make aiming at anything but point-blank range a chore, but they won't start movement so suddenly, because they have an actual flight model behind them - and like I said earlier, they don't use all of their control surfaces to steer at once. KSP suffers from a lack of a flight model (what we have now isn't a flight model as much as it's a falling model - the barest basics of air resistance and lift) first and foremost. When it actually gets an overhaul of that, I think we'll see planes handling much more realistically.

Also, I'm not sure if it was fixed, but if you're on one of those non-Windows platforms, I think there was a bug that made fine controls mode not work.

Also also, since 0.21.1, there is a forced deadzone on the control input, so that SAS doesn't lose its lock on the intended direction so easily.

Also also also, this video I made with the Aeris 3A. It was back before the .21.1 hotfix, to showcase SAS issues. I switch to fine controls about a minute in, so you can see the change in handling. If you're not seeing that change, then something is indeed wrong.

[ASnogarD]

1 min in, with fine control I can see the roll... look how stiff and jerky it is, you rolled a bit then again each time it jerked to its new position...

... bloody hell is the simulation off, some of the times you were flying backwards.

Squad, 10 lashes for your physics programmer O.O (joke, kidding, dont report this post as evil intent, do not set the anti terrorist group against me, do not get the lawyers out)

[Sean Mirrsen]

Yeah, that was the new SAS doing its thing. The Aeris has a peculiar aerodynamic profile, in that it can be flipped, with a very precise combination of inputs. With SAS on, the combination of inputs is just "tap S once". Plus the SAS locks the new course, backwards, so for a while you can be flying in reverse.