Clear explanation of diminishing science and science loss from transmitting.

[Krisism]

Hello hello. I've spent some time looking for the answer on this and testing, and I'm still not completely clear. Hopefully someone will help me out with the simple details. I'm sorry if this has already been asked; I did try searching before hand but didn't see any results.

So the question is:

If you transmit certain experiment data, there is a loss of science. For example, 50%. Given that science points diminish when you are in the same biomes, does the loss resulting from transmitting mean that you are losing potential data points overall? So if a certain biome had 50 science points to gather, and you gathered 50 on a single mission there, then transmitted it at a 50% loss - would that biome be 'scienced out' or would there be 25 points remaining to still gather?

Thank you for any help on this and sorry for the confusing wording above

Edited November 1, 2013 by Krisism

[Johnno]

In my personal experience there is no science points loss from transmitting. It is however, as I understand it, planned for future patches:

"Felipe (HarvesteR): Many Improvements done to Science Experiments and Transmission. Transmitting data does not allow you to max out a subject anymore as the science gain for transmission decays to 0% as repeated data is sent. "

From here.

Currently you can, in my personal experience, transmit several times from the same biome to "mine" it of science points, the same amount you would have gotten if you had returned said sample.

[Kasuha]

No you are not losing anything. There's certain amount of science points you can acquire by doing research using certain device in certain place and by repeatedly doing the research and transmitting the result you can collect them all. The amount of science acquired by each transmission will diminish but the total will limit to the maximum value.

[Iridium616]

You don't lose -as of .22- any scince when transmitting, just be sure to spam transmissions.

Also a Tip, explore kervin. It has got many science and when you're done you just press "recover vessel"

[Krisism]

Thanks for the answers everyone! Marking as answered now.

[Geschosskopf]

Unless something has changed significantly since the last time I ran extensive tests, you actually DO lose SIGNIFICANT science from transmitting data instead of returning it. I recommend NEVER transmitting anything except crew reports, which are the only things that have 100% efficiency in transmitting. So for the rest of this discussion, I will ignore crew reports.

The Science payout of data is counted as it is received. Each time you run the same experiment in the same place, it's worth less Science than it was the previous time KSC heard of it. This modifier is applied before any others, taken off the top, and it makes it so that no experiment is ever worth doing more than twice, after which its value falls off exponentially. Then after this modifier, you have the modifier for data loss in transmission if you do that instead of returning the data. Bottom line therefore is that you should only do any given experiment twice, and should return both of them. If you instead choose to spam a given experiment via transmitting it constantly, you shoot yourself in the foot.

Say an experiment is worth 100 points if you return the 1st time you do it. Then it's worth 80 points the 2nd time, then 20, 5, 1, etc, if returned. And also assume you only get 40% of those points if you transmit it. If you return the 1st 2 times you run it, you get 180 points. If you transmit the 1st 4 times you run it and return the 5th, you get 40 + 32 + 8 + 2 + 1 = 83 points.

Transmitting is Science Suicide (except for crew reports). Do not do it (for anything else).

[kurja]

you actually DO lose SIGNIFICANT science from transmitting data instead of returning it. I recommend NEVER transmitting anything except crew reports, which are the only things that have 100% efficiency in transmitting.

How did you test this? Stated by the devs and other players who have tested this, total amount of science always ends up the same.

"If you transmit the 1st 4 times you run it and return the 5th, you get 40 + 32 + 8 + 2 + 1"

your fifth number would be larger, as it would not suffer the -60% transmit penalty

[kurja]

In my personal experience there is no science points loss from transmitting. It is however, as I understand it, planned for future patches:

as I understand it, there would be a max amount of science that you could get through transmissions, but the total would remain the same - only to get the rest, you'd need to return the experiments (which makes perfect sense).

[merlinux]

In my experience transmitting as of .22 is a lot more efficient as you can max out the science of a particular experience in just one mission with only one 'pod'. I was struggling to get a lot of science before I started realising this (by watching the 6000 points mission from scott manley). I have almost finished the tech tree with a few mission.

The devs know that and it will be changed in .23

As of now transmitting is the way to go if you want to grind...

[annallia]

Unless something has changed significantly since the last time I ran extensive tests, you actually DO lose SIGNIFICANT science from transmitting data instead of returning it. I recommend NEVER transmitting anything except crew reports, which are the only things that have 100% efficiency in transmitting. So for the rest of this discussion, I will ignore crew reports.

The Science payout of data is counted as it is received. Each time you run the same experiment in the same place, it's worth less Science than it was the previous time KSC heard of it. This modifier is applied before any others, taken off the top, and it makes it so that no experiment is ever worth doing more than twice, after which its value falls off exponentially. Then after this modifier, you have the modifier for data loss in transmission if you do that instead of returning the data. Bottom line therefore is that you should only do any given experiment twice, and should return both of them. If you instead choose to spam a given experiment via transmitting it constantly, you shoot yourself in the foot.

Say an experiment is worth 100 points if you return the 1st time you do it. Then it's worth 80 points the 2nd time, then 20, 5, 1, etc, if returned. And also assume you only get 40% of those points if you transmit it. If you return the 1st 2 times you run it, you get 180 points. If you transmit the 1st 4 times you run it and return the 5th, you get 40 + 32 + 8 + 2 + 1 = 83 points.

Transmitting is Science Suicide (except for crew reports). Do not do it (for anything else).

There comes a point however where it is just worth transmitting. It really doesn't take all that much to max out the tech tree right now. My first run on career mode I only did one manned mission that went interplanetary (several manned mun/minmus and return missions) That mission went to jool and all of its moons, never landed just spammed crew reports, goo, temp/gravity/and one other that I forget + the science jr (biggest bite is the 20%...) While it is true I lost a ton of science on this mission by transmitting rather than returning I also did enough to cover a good 2 or 3 dozen trips out there easy and earned thousands of science from the flight. I agree with short trips like the mun returning, however the further out you go the more sense taking the loss makes.

How did you test this? Stated by the devs and other players who have tested this, total amount of science always ends up the same.

"If you transmit the 1st 4 times you run it and return the 5th, you get 40 + 32 + 8 + 2 + 1"

your fifth number would be larger, as it would not suffer the -60% transmit penalty

I will have to re-test this and could do so easily with a mun run or something on a new save but I don't recall ever getting that kind of science. If what you say is true my last trip to the mun should have paid out around 500 science, instead I only get the 300ish from transmitting + another 40 or so that I had stored in reports when I returned.

[kurja]

so, I've conducted some experiments and here's the data (puts on a lab coat)

Started two new saves, and took some soil samples off the pad and such so that I could get goo containers and some rocket stuff. Then, in save no.1, I went flying over Kerbin repeatedly, observing the goo and returning the experiment, receiving the following science! points:

7

3.1

1.4

0.6

0.3

0.1

for a total of twelve and a half science! points.

Then in save no.2, I took off, again flying at Kerbin, observed the goo and repeatedly transmitted the results, receiving the following science! points:

2.8

2.2

1.7

1.3

1.0

0.8

0.6

0.5

0.4

0.3

0.2

0.1

0.1

0.1

..and so on

for a total of twelve and a half science! points.

Then a third experiment was conducted, this time Jeb was sent flying in Kerbin's upper atmosphere, first observing the goo three times and transmitting the experiment for:

2.8

2.2

1.7

science! points, then making a fourth observation and returning it for 3.5 science! points.

Conclusion: total amount of science! gained by repeatedly performing an experiment in a biome is the same regardless of how the results are returned to Kerbin, a) by transmitting, by returning the experiment, or c) any combination of a) and .

These results can be predicted in-game by observing the reported "scientific value" of any experiment's result: the value systematically decreases for a consecutive returned experiment by a given percentage, which appears to be ~55%. However, if the experiment was transmitted, the amount of science! that was "discarded" is returned to the biome's pool so that the scientific value of the next experiment is never decreased more than by the amount previously received.

(takes off lab coat)

(goes back to adding boosters)

edit - however, if you return and recover the crafts, you do get extra science for that, take that into account and your total amount of science is larger than if you transmitted everything from a one-way mission. But the science gained from the experiments themselves is the same, which was the subject here.

Edited November 2, 2013 by kurja

[Geschosskopf]

so, I've conducted some experiments and here's the data (puts on a lab coat)

You missed a key variable. You ONLY returned and ONLY transmitted. The loss comes in if you do both in the same game. Which, most people only playing 1 game at a time, is the most likely scenario. So I stand by what I said. If you mix transmitting with recovering, you lose points.

In your example, you have the standard 2 goos because they're radial, and you're just starting so you only have enough power to transmit 1 experiment. If you go somewhere new, expose both goos, and recover without transmitting, you get 7 + 3.1 = 10.1, which is like 83% of the total available points in 1 go.

If OTOH you go to the same place, expose 1 goo, transmit it, expose it again, and expose the 2nd goo 1 time, recovering both of those, you get: 2.8 (1st sample, transmitted) + 3.1 (2nd sample, recovered) + 1.4 (3rd sample, recovered) = 7.3. Now, there are still 12.5 points in total so technically you don't actually lose any, but recovering the remainder now will take forever because you'll have a longer series of 0.1 iterations to go through, whether you transmit or recover. This is because the R&D system counts the number of times its seen the same experiment from the same place, regardless of how it got there. So here, the 1st sample returned was actually the 2nd sample because the 1st was transmitted.

So, if you don't transmit, you get the bulk of the available points in 1 shot and can go on to other things. If you mix transmitting and receiving, you leave nearly 1/2 the points on the table so now you have to go back 2 or 3 more times to catch up with where you'd have been if you hadn't transmitted. This gets to be a boring grind very quickly so most folks aren't going to do it, thereby forfeiting points.

Basically, transmitting anything except crew reports is an impediment to progress, just like using probes. If you send a probe, you'll have to send a Kerbal later to do the crew report, EVA report, and surface samples, which is also a boring grind. So, send a Kerbal the 1st time. And if you've got a Kerbal, you're going to bring him home, so you might as well return 2 copies of the physical experiments to get the most points you can out of the mission, and never have to go back there.

[merlinux]

Basically, transmitting anything except crew reports is an impediment to progress, just like using probes. If you send a probe, you'll have to send a Kerbal later to do the crew report, EVA report, and surface samples, which is also a boring grind. So, send a Kerbal the 1st time. And if you've got a Kerbal, you're going to bring him home, so you might as well return 2 copies of the physical experiments to get the most points you can out of the mission, and never have to go back there.

While in your reasoning you may hold some truth I do not agree that sending unmanned probes is an "impediment to progress", quite the contrary. And you are not obliged to send a Kerbal where a probe has been... Just because I haven't got a soil sample of Tylo of Eve surface doesn't mean I absolutely need to... There are so many science available in the whole kerbol system, you would have maxxed out the tree way before that.... In my gameplay I send heaps of probes/rovers in addition to my manned program. Which gets me a lot more science I believe. Also when I send kerbals I do not always do EVA reports while in space cause I find it annoying. For the Mun I agree kerballed missions are more effective, but probes have a use for interplanetary...

EDIT: I also just thought of something that negate your reasoning. As you progress in the tech tree you unlock several extra experiments, especially the accelerometer and the gravioli which gets you insane amount of science. Those are far up in the tree. Does that mean you will redo every mission you have done before??? Or just move on and keep exploring new things and grab science elsewhere?

Edited November 3, 2013 by merlinux

[kurja]

You missed a key variable. You ONLY returned and ONLY transmitted. The loss comes in if you do both in the same game. Which, most people only playing 1 game at a time, is the most likely scenario. So I stand by what I said. If you mix transmitting with recovering, you lose points.

No, I tested exactly that in the third experiment, see my post above: transmitted three times, then returned a fourth example in the same mission.

In your example, you have the standard 2 goos because they're radial, and you're just starting so you only have enough power to transmit 1 experiment. If you go somewhere new, expose both goos, and recover without transmitting, you get 7 + 3.1 = 10.1, which is like 83% of the total available points in 1 go.

If OTOH you go to the same place, expose 1 goo, transmit it, expose it again, and expose the 2nd goo 1 time, recovering both of those, you get: 2.8 (1st sample, transmitted) + 3.1 (2nd sample, recovered) + 1.4 (3rd sample, recovered) = 7.3. Now, there are still 12.5 points in total so technically you don't actually lose any, but recovering the remainder now will take forever because you'll have a longer series of 0.1 iterations to go through, whether you transmit or recover. This is because the R&D system counts the number of times its seen the same experiment from the same place, regardless of how it got there. So here, the 1st sample returned was actually the 2nd sample because the 1st was transmitted.

So, if you don't transmit, you get the bulk of the available points in 1 shot and can go on to other things. If you mix transmitting and receiving, you leave nearly 1/2 the points on the table so now you have to go back 2 or 3 more times to catch up with where you'd have been if you hadn't transmitted. This gets to be a boring grind very quickly so most folks aren't going to do it, thereby forfeiting points.

No. Read my above post, if I transmit once for 2.8 points and then recover, the science generated by the recovered experiment will yield more science than what you say. Doing the math, transmit once for 2.8 then 9.7 of total of 12.5 remains and so returning the next experiment would give you 55% of that which is 5.3 points, you really should test this for yourself.

Basically, transmitting anything except crew reports is an impediment to progress, just like using probes. If you send a probe, you'll have to send a Kerbal later to do the crew report, EVA report, and surface samples, which is also a boring grind. So, send a Kerbal the 1st time. And if you've got a Kerbal, you're going to bring him home, so you might as well return 2 copies of the physical experiments to get the most points you can out of the mission, and never have to go back there.

To get the most points out of a mission, first transmit as many times as you will or untill you get bored of the clicking and then return with stored experiments.

edit, 9.7*55%=5.3, obviously not 9.7...

Edited November 3, 2013 by kurja

[kurja]

I'll just cite my earlier data to make this as clear as I can: three transmitted goo observations yield 2.8, 2.2 and 1.7 points, then storing and returning a fourth observation will yield additional 3.5 points for a total of 10.2 points which is more than what could be gained by making two return missions for 7+3.1 = 10.1 points. My point all along has been simply to make it clear that science is never lost like some have claimed, and it just happens that it is actually more efficient to transmit first even if you're going to then return the vessel with it's experiments.

[kurja]

If you mix transmitting with recovering, you lose points.

In your example, you have the standard 2 goos because they're radial, and you're just starting so you only have enough power to transmit 1 experiment. If you go somewhere new, expose both goos, and recover without transmitting, you get 7 + 3.1 = 10.1, which is like 83% of the total available points in 1 go.

If OTOH you go to the same place, expose 1 goo, transmit it, expose it again, and expose the 2nd goo 1 time, recovering both of those, you get: 2.8 (1st sample, transmitted) + 3.1 (2nd sample, recovered) + 1.4 (3rd sample, recovered) = 7.3. Now, there are still 12.5 points in total so technically you don't actually lose any, but recovering the remainder now will take forever because you'll have a longer series of 0.1 iterations to go through, whether you transmit or recover. This is because the R&D system counts the number of times its seen the same experiment from the same place, regardless of how it got there. So here, the 1st sample returned was actually the 2nd sample because the 1st was transmitted.

So, if you don't transmit, you get the bulk of the available points in 1 shot and can go on to other things. If you mix transmitting and receiving, you leave nearly 1/2 the points on the table so now you have to go back 2 or 3 more times to catch up with where you'd have been if you hadn't transmitted. This gets to be a boring grind very quickly so most folks aren't going to do it, thereby forfeiting points.

Getting back to this just this one more time, I just had to perform that exact mission to get real numbers on it. So, had two radially attached goos for accuracy, made one observation, transmitted it and got 2.8 points with that. Then, I made observations of both goos, storing the experiments, and recovering them, and got 5.4 and 2.4 points for a total of 10.6 points, as predicted. 10.6 > 10.1. There is absolutely no harm in transmitting.