The "time" problem in career mode (Space Race)

[peadar1987]

So a lot of people are requesting experiments that take time to complete, or deliver continuous science once deployed.

However, the devs (and I agree with them) have said that this isn't going to happen, because it would be possible to just time warp, and get all the science instantly.

The same issue comes up when budgets are being discussed, how do you have a budget that limits you without just being able to time warp until the next year's funds come through?

Basically, for "over time" science to work, time warp has to be disincentivised somehow.

My suggestion for this is for a "Space Race" with a fictional rival Kerbal nation.

They will be progressing along their own path at a certain rate, and it's your job to stay ahead of them. Waste your budget, and have to time warp to get more money, and you lose precious time to the KSSR in the race to orbit.

"Losing" to your rivals could have consequences for your public opinion, or as I'd prefer, it's just for your own satisfaction.

Although a "show" space centre for them would be cool, along with spawning landers/space stations/bases, they could just be implemented as a timer, or messages that pop up whenever the rivals accomplish something.

Any thoughts?

[ddavis425]

Sounds like a good way to discourage timewarp. Maxmaps once said on another website that other space agencies could be possible with some sort of AI system that Squad implemented/will implement. He said he liked my idea of rescuing kerbals from the other space programs to gain reputation, so I think that Squad has at least thought about the idea.

[Hashbrown66]

Yeah, that would be pretty fun! (as long as it were optional, of course, to please the newbie-conscious) It would be neat if they could get some smart AI logic in there to assess your skill level and make it harder or easier as you play through.

[technicalfool]

However, the devs (and I agree with them) have said that this isn't going to happen, because it would be possible to just time warp, and get all the science instantly.

Depends on how slow the science comes in. If you have to do a grand tour three times on low-tech parts to make it so your army of one probe in every biome can finish the tree in 7 days of max time warp, then you could argue that well, you have to do a grand tour two or three times on low tech parts in order to do that. Don't forget that at low tech, not nearly all of the scientific instruments are available.

However yes, having options at the start of your career mode to select 0..n number of AI factions from a list could be fun. Perhaps some kind of Master Of Orion style diplomacy and swapping of science going on, only without the giant doom stars full of phasors and plasma torpedoes. Work the system on a kind of "give more, get more" approach, where the more you do, the more that AI factions want to get involved and ally with you. Keep doing stuff, and your allied factions will be willing to do more, and will contribute more to your science pool (and you to theirs).

Add to that some individual characteristics for the factions. One or two may be rather unfriendly and not prone to sharing, however they may have top notch scientists and can get you a bunch of extra RP, so long as you do really well and continue to impress them, shall we say.

Edited December 30, 2013 by technicalfool

[Yakuzi]

However, the devs (and I agree with them) have said that this isn't going to happen, because it would be possible to just time warp, and get all the science instantly.

As things are now, many people are spamming/grinding to get research points which IMO is even more of an exploit and considerably less fun than setting up the infrastructure and performing science over time.

In another thread I posted some suggestions on how time-warp abuse can be reduced:

- Science over time (SoT) would exist alongside the current 'direct' acquired science system

- SoT science points would be acquired at long intervals, possibly with diminishing returns per experiment (or alternatively, increased returns over ever longer time frames)

- SoT modules would require some tech, so they won't be available from the start

- SoT modules can breakdown or would use 'lab consumables' (similar to fuel), so maintenance or resupply missions are required

- SoT modules can analyze/process 'direct' acquired science over time at a fraction (e.g. 80%) of the total research value

This SoT scheme reflects more closely how science actually works and would stimulate satellite networks and orbital/ground research stations. In turn this would encourage Kerbal infrastructure throughout the kerbolar system and other awesomeness.

The space race idea is also nice though, would love to see it implemented

[AngelLestat]

"KSSR" can we keep our races and countries out of ksp similarities?? Please.

[peadar1987]

I was thinking something very simple, no AI, no computer-controlled launches blasting off, flying through space, or anything (although it would probably be possible with a bit of clever coding to add rival spacecraft to the game in certain orbits so you could keep an eye on them). I really was just going for a simple timer, and maybe a pop-up or information box from Wernher von Kerman letting you know what the other Kerbals were working on, and roughly how much time you had before they achieved it (I think this would give you deadlines and things to aim for without overly restricting you. Hear your rivals are planning a Minmus landing and return? You can try and stretch out your budget to get there before them, or you can abandon the race to Minmus and instead focus on launching a probe to Duna. Or just ignore them altogether, but it would give a little sense of urgency and make your budget have some meaning)

As an aside (please don't lock the thread!!), it's not really in the spirit of the game, and will defnitely never be implemented, but wouldn't it be fun if the much maligned female Kerbals had a space centre diametrically opposed to the normal KSC, and you could choose at the start of the game whether to play as male or female Kerbals, with your rivals then being the other gender?!

[rkman]

Agreed with Op and with Squad:

If the point of science-over-time in ksp is to simulate real world scientific progression, then gaining science merely by having time pass is not interesting because irl science takes time because things need to be done to make science progresss, and doing things (explore) takes time.

This already is simulated in ksp because you need to fly missions in order to gain science - and doing missions takes time.

TL;DR: there already is science-over-time, it's just that you have to actually do something for time to pass, instead of just sitting there watching time go by.

[illectro]

However, the devs (and I agree with them) have said that this isn't going to happen, because it would be possible to just time warp, and get all the science instantly.

Actually, that's not automatically the case, firstly, if you want to do long exposure experiments then you need to put yourself in orbit instead of simply flying past a target, time warping doesn't help for this case. Furthermore, long exposure experiments that take power may not be available depending on your power system. One possibility is to add time sensitive biomes for certain experiments - e.g. you need to take temperature readings in the middle of the day and the middle of the night, necessitating a probe that can power itself and the experiment through the night.