*Aqua*

@Gaalidas & lo-fi Because Gaalidas can't update the first post & thread title you should create a post which sums up all the changes Gaalidas make and add a link to it in the opening post.

According to the latest dev notes there's a bug with a cool part which has several hot parts attached. Due to a bug in the heat transfer system the cool part could overheat and explode. Also you can't use Jool for aerobreaking at interplanetary speeds anymore. You instantly overheat. That is also a bug. Also note that the heat mechanics are tuned for extreme uses. The heat shields for example are balanced for an Eve re-entry. That's why you never have a problem using them at Kerbin.

@Gaalidas If you've got a problem with something and lo-fi is out of town, you can always ask me for help.

No. Buy the beer for yourself, build a cannonball-like craft and ride it to space while drinking.

Have a look at USI MKS & EL. The former allows nice base and station building and the later adds the ability to produce crafts everywhere you want. MKS also supports TAC Life Support. While EL make things easier, MKS can be a ...... It takes some time and effort to get a base up and running. Also KIS and KAS is highly recommended. You mean this one. It's updated for the latest KSP so it should work.

How do you want to power that? 4 repulsor + n electric engines quite a lot of ECs. There are even some electric engines which are totally unusable because of EC demand.

If you want to know how it's handled in Germany, read the spoiler. General a) If the drone weights less than 5 kg you don't need a regulatory permit. If the drone weights 5+ kg you need a regulatory permit issued by the Federal Office of Civil Aeronautics of the state you want to fly in (Germany consists of 16 states). c) To get a permit you have to be registered at a model aircraft club. The club usually helps at doing all the necessary paperwork for the authorities. d) You need a liability insurance which covers drone accidents. And you need to carry the insurance certificate or similar proof with you when flying. Without it you could be fined up to 50 000 € (~56 000 US$)! (source) Flight rules a) 1st paragraph of flight order always applies: Always act in a way so that order and safety is ensured and that there's nobody put in danger, harmed, hindered or harassed. You are not allowed to fly higher than 100 m or the heights given by the International Civil Aviation Organisation. c) You have to keep your drone in sight (usually <200-300 m) without the need for tools like cameras or binoculars. d) You are not allowed to fly within 1500 meters of an airport. There are also other no fly zones (see next point). e) In most states it's forbidden to fly above crowds, accident sites, prisons, military bases, industries and power plants. f) Even if you're issued a permit for flying in a controlled flight zone, it's best to stay out of it. It's easy to make mistakes which have severe consequences. For example if your drone appears on the flight control radar they have to reroute traffic. That alone is reason enough to put you into jail for at least 3 months. g) If you want to start & landing in an area you don't own you need a permit by the owner (except it accidentally crash-landed there). h) Usually people have to tolerate drones zipping the skies above their ground, except if you fly really low with a loud drone. Then he can sue you. (Yeah I know it's a bit vague.) (source) Areal photos In Germany personal rights are divided into three parts: intimate sphere, privacy sphere and social sphere. a) Violation of the intimate sphere (i. e. photographing someone through a window) is always forbidden. You can be sued for that. Violation of privacy depends on what actually happened. For example photographing a guy who does some BBQ in his garden can be sued. But if said guy is a VIP a court must judge if that's a privacy violation or not because there's "public interest" in what he does. c) Violation of the social sphere is even more vague. I don't want to give an example because I don't know what a social sphere is. Never heard of that term before. (source) First person view (FPV) a) According to Flight rules point c) you aren't allowed to let the drone fly out of sight. But if it's in sight and you fly by using a camera you're in a grey zone. It's best if there's a second person who watches the drone while you're staring on a screen. You must abide data protection laws. That means you're not allowed to track a guy with your camera for a prolonged time or something like that. Also keep the data protection law in mind when posting the video to the internet. (source)

@BahamutoD I have problems remembering which weapon uses which targeting system (heat, radar, gps, none). Could you please add indicators to the entries in the weapons list like small icons (flame -> heat; waves -> radar; satellite -> gps; circle -> dumb fire) or simply color code the text (red -> heat; green -> radar; blue -> gps; white -> dumb fire)? This would greatly help us discerning the capatibilites of a weapon on-the-fly. It'll also reduce the amount of questions about how to correctly use the missles in this thread.

Compiled? It's not IL code?

Does Mono has a JIT compiler? If so changing the time warp could trigger on-the-fly optimization of some the code.

I think the same. The weeks before the 1.9 release lo-fi did a lot of stuff! I even thought he put all of his free time into KF. (Which is insane because you burn out pretty fast!)

I were under the impression that's the case. Damn language barrier!Btw, language is a good example where AIs have a lot of problems. Depending on the language it can be very difficult to come up with a set of rules to describe them. Or in other words AIs have problem understanding languages. The main reason is of course that meanings of words and phrases are context sensitive. As long as an AI doesn't understand the context it won't understand content. A prime example for that is Japanese which is very context heavy: Your friend asks: Do you want to go home together? You answer: [Yes, I want to] Go [together with you]. Your answer can be interpreted in a number of ways but it simply means that you agree to the proposal of you friend. So far I didn't see a translator or algorithm which gets context dependent meanings right. That's quite a hot topic.Scientists and philosophes are discussing for hundreds of years if a baby's mind is "pre-programmed" in the womb or not. So the question is if visual recognition of things has to be learned or is the ability already there. If we apply that to AIs we get the question if they should be pre-programmed with a few rules and/or knowledge or not. What's you opinion about that? It just came into my mind: If we can't come up with a definition of "intelligence" could it be that there's no such thing?In my computer science studies I was always surprised what other people call "intelligent" algorithms. Usually the algorithms are so simple that I call them cleverly designed but not intelligent. Also the difference of human and animal "intelligence" doesn't seem so big if we compare both. Planning, learning, etc. can be done by both, can we still say animals are stupid and humans are intelligent if they have the same abilities? Afaik shame is an emotion which childs don't have. They develop it just before or during puberty. Could it be that emotions are learned instead of being "pre-programmed"?

Glad, I could help you guy! I just discovered that the Github cookie's life time came to an end. That's the reason why I couldn't access the repo anymore. *sigh* I hate me sometimes for not noticing trivial things like that. You should do that. I'm pretty sure that almost all mod authors don't care about KSP <1.0 anymore. I will be increasingly difficult to get current mods running in an old version of KSP. There are a number of sites why stores text files for free and without needing an account, i. e. http://pastebin.com/. Most of these sites have a size limit, you may have to split up your log files into smaller file before uploading them. I'm pretty sure that all of them got an update for KSP 1.0.x. Please refer to their forum threads to get the latest mod version and ask for help if they don't work. You should visit this thread, post your log files there and ask for help.

It's just the one thread that really does a lot of calculations: the physics thread. And then there's Windows which pushes a thread from one core to the next. It's the game programmer's responsibility to decide between the default Windows behavior or instead locking a thread to a specific CPU core. Locking might look like a good idea but on the other hand it also limits the ability of the OS to react on varying workloads. (Instead of pushing a single performance-eating thread to an unused core Windows then has to move a dozen of processes.)

The science tree crashes in your install. Please check if KSP is correctly installed and there are no files missing or corrupt.

Somehow I don't have access to the KerbalFoundries repo anymore. I guess lo-fi assumed I'm not interested in helping to develop KF anymore. I didn't do much in the last weeks because of real life.

First I want to say I'm happy about the way the discussion goes. There's no bashing and no unnecessary Terminator references. If we apply theoretical computer science to that the halting problem applies to step 3. Or in layman terms: We don't know if we ever get past step 3. Could you give an example which quantum algorithms are perfect for ANNs?I still doubt it is possible. A biological NN uses analogue values, processed in a continuous way. An ANN uses digital/binary values, processed in steps. A quantum computers calculates with energy levels and/or spins or other physical properties of particles, processed instantly(?). While you can get simulate analogue values using binary values with a bit of rounding, energy levels and spins work in a completely different way as far as I understand them. Quantums don't work the same way as neurons. Or in a better wording, I don't know of a mechanism which applies to quantum particles which works similiar to neurons and can be used by us. I'm not sure I understand you right. What line? What lower levels? A dog does make plans. For example I usually tries to keep his pack together. When I was a child my dog always chased me and lightly bit me (not to the point of injury) when I tried to run away. He did it to stop me and immediately stopped harassing me when I stopped running away. This example shows prediction ("he'll be gone" -> weakened pack & "he'll stay if I act" -> pack keeps the way it is), planning (running to me, stopping me, keeping me near the pack) and an abstract view of the world (more specific: the state of his pack & me). Wolves are known to hunt in packs. There are drivers which drives the prey into traps, a place which is surrounded by other wolves of the pack waiting there. That proves the ability to plan ahead. What about problems an ANN wasn't trained for? It can't "think" outside of the box and be creative.I'm under the impression that you didn't completely understand how an ANN works. There's a set of input neurons. They are fed with sensory information (a picture, sound, etc.). Attached to the input neurons can be 0 or more layers of hidden neurons which are connected in sometimes weird ways. And then there are the output neurons which are either connected to the hidden neurons and/or the input neurons. The state (activated/deactivated) of these neurons represents the conclusion of the ANN to the given input. For example if output neuron #4872 fires and all others didn't, it means that the letter 'a' is recognized. An artificial neuron works like this: It is connected to at least one other neuron which is either actived or not. The connections to these neurons have a weight value. Weight represents how 'important' the state of the connected neuron is. The artificial neuron now checks each connected neuron while taking the weight into consideration (there are a number of way to do that) and comes up with a value which represents the so called 'net activity'. If said net activity goes above/below/something other (depends on algorithm) a threshold inside the neuron actives (it 'fires'). This is done for each neuron. It can get quite complex and difficult to do that right. For example if there are neurons which form a loop , do you want to repeat the loop a few times? Or just ignore it? Btw memory in ANNs is done using loops and process them only once during each iteration and keeping their activity state between two iterations. Clues are not enough. We need facts. Afaik the brain is still mostly not understood. For example they found groups of only about a couple thousands neuron which only have a few connections to the outside of the groups just a few years ago. And they still don't know why they are there and what they do. Yeah, I was a bit quick writing this. You mean rule based systems? Ok, we are not talking of the same things. I guess I couldn't put my thought in the correct words. (And by now I have forgotten what I wanted to write back then. ) What I tried to say is that ANNs are not the pinnacle of AI programming. IMHO evolutionary programming is the way which leads to a real thinking AI. While ANNs are static (they have neurons, they have connections between the neurons - that will never change) evolutionary algorithms can change everything about themselves. There's nothing static anymore which means they can adapt to unknown situations and can come up with creative solutions to a problem. It's even possible that they come up with their own kind of ANN to solve specific problems. Here's an of an evolutionary algorithm forming a morphology and at the same time developing techniques to move around and perform special tasks. An ANN would never be able to do that on it's own. I want to point out that my list contains stuff which IMO should be included in an "intelligence" definition. This list is by no means complete. An intelligent being does more than what I wrote, for example being creative.

I don't agree with your definition of intelligence. What you said would make an automatic light with a motion sensor intelligent (which IMO isn't intelligent).I won't define intelligence because I don't think I'm smart enough for that. But the definition should include at least: - ability to make decisions (= plan a course of actions) - evaluation of surroundings and self (= ability to create an abstract representation of the world) - consideration of past memorys (= learning) - consideration of possible futures (= prediction) Sounds like the definition of "memory". I won't try to define consciousness. I've no idea where to start. Maybe the ability to distinguish between self and surroundings? Having an opinion about things and actions? Afaik brainwaves are just noise of the neural activity.Analogue would be a room full of loudly talking people. You wouldn't be able to distinguish the talk of a single person but you can hear the noise they all make together. This was invented 30+ years ago. There are a lot of different ANNs and some of them allow that. There are also some which can act like memory, some have the ability to modify themselves, etc.ANNs are very good at pattern recognition that's why they are used in automated image processing (face recognition, OCR [optical character recognition = reading text on an image] etc.). But they are bad at other things. For example decision making: I don't see a way how it can make a plan of actions Optimizations can be done later. Currently it's more important to find a mathematical description of how the brain works. When we have that we can make an artifical brain with our technology. Remember that ANNs are only an approximation of biological NNs. They don't work exactly the same as the original. And maybe that difference is the key to real intelligence. Yes and no.Yes, computers can calculate a lot in a short amount of time but ANNs actually learn very slowly compared to our brain. For example this is a very simple perceptron (a kind of ANN) I wrote a few years ago: // simple ANN with a 2-dimensional layer of input neurons and a 1-dimensional layer of output neurons public final class ANN implements Serializable { private static final long serialVersionUID = -1832083414154078932L; private final float[][] weight; // weights between input and output neurons private final float[] threshold; // threshold of output neurons private final boolean[] output; // output neurons, results are in there private final float learningRate = 0.2f; // how fast it should learn // constructor // x*y -> number of input neurons // z -> number of output neurons public ANN(final int x, final int y, final int z) { // randomize weights weight = new float[x][y]; for (int i = 0; i < x; i++) { for (int j = 0; j < y; j++) { weight[i][j] = (float) Math.random(); } } // randomize thresholds threshold = new float[z]; output = new boolean[z]; for (int k = 0; k < z; k++) { threshold[k] = (float) Math.random(); output[k] = false; } } // lets the ANN run once public boolean[] fire(final boolean[][] input) { float net; // net activity // calculate for each output neuron if it should activate for (int k = 0; k < output.length; k++) { net = 0f; // calculate net activity by checking all input neurons and considering weights for (int i = 0; i < input.length; i++) { // input.length = array width for (int j = 0; j < input[0].length; j++) { // input[0].length = array height if (input[i][j]) { net += weight[i][j]; // update net activity } } } // calculate activation of the current output neuron, uses simple threshold comparison output[k] = net > threshold[k] ? true : false; } return output; } // use this to let the net learn // provide a set of input data and the desired output public void learn(final boolean[][] input, final boolean[] desiredOutput) { float delta = 0f; // error rate // the ANN needs to process the data once fire(input); for (int k = 0; k < output.length; k++) { // apply delta rule to check for errors delta = (desiredOutput[k] ? 1f : 0f) - (output[k] ? 1f : 0f); if (delta != 0f) { // if there's an error the ANN needs to learn // update all weights for (int i = 0; i < input.length; i++) { for (int j = 0; j < input[0].length; j++) { weight[i][j] += learningRate * (input[i][j] ? 1f : 0f) * delta; } } // update threshold threshold[k] -= learningRate * delta; } } } } import java.io.Serializable; This perceptron can be used for OCR. It needs 200 to 1000 (!) learning iterations until it can distinguish between all letters in the alphabet. A human child needs 1 iteration. He/she immediately see the differences between all letters even if it can't read and never saw letters before. Fast at which work compared to what?Quantum computers are only fast at very specific tasks. A simple 1+1 calculation is likely to be slower compared to electronical computers. I'm not sure if a quantum computer can actually perform basic calculations. There was a course at my university about quantum computing. I didn't attend it. The related math is crazy! Why?As long as you can make a math formula describing something it can be calculated by computers. Nope. It can't do that. All the examples in the spoiler maybe use an ANN for pattern recognition but all the stuff (interpretations, evaluations, etc.) which comes after that are done by other algorithms. "Just" is a nice word for describing a monumental task. Let's say scientists somehow understand how consciousness works. A conscious AI will still be dumb. Does an AI even need a consciousness? Do we want an AI with a consciousness? I say no to both questions. I would be happy if a slave (there's no other use for an AI) doesn't have an opinion about being a slave. It's okay. As long as we know you call them NeuNets we'll be fine.

I'm sorry for referring to the first post after 5 pages but I found it hard to keep track of the discussion (language barrier). @AngelLestat First something about syntax: NeuNet - The common abbreviations for neuronal networks are "NN" or "ANN" (artificial neuronal network). IA - I read this several times in this thread. What is meant by that? Or is it just a typo for "AI"? That's so true! Currently nobody can give us a proper definition of what intelligence and consciousness is. All the "intelligent"* programs and machines are IMO not intelligent. They are a set of algorithms arranged in a clever way, nothing more. * According to my vague understanding of "intelligence". We already created that: ANNs. They are a approximation of the underlying mechanism in a brain. What we still can't do is to simulate several millions of neurons and their interactions (we lack the hardware). We also lack the knowledge how to link the neurons in a sensible manner. In our brain neurons form groups which more and less interact with other groups. Several of these groups form a brain region which specializes in different tasks, i. e. there's a region for face recognition, one for short time memory, one for long time memory, etc. There are regions for specific tasks but there are also regions for "general processing" which don't specialize on specific tasks. All the regions work in a very different manner and we still don't know how that works. If you want to know more about how our brain works, have a look at this YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/TEDtalksDirector/search?query=brain Although it's impossible to predict it, I would guess 100+ years. When studying computer sciences I also took some classes in AI and what I found there in terms of progression was disappointing. In the last 30 years there was no huge progress. All the "intelligent" stuff our computers do today already existed back then. They just didn't have the hardware. IMO the only field where I can see a bit of progression are semantic webs. A semantic web is a kind of knowledge database which can describe the world almost like we can do, even in a vague way. It arranges information in concepts and relations between the concepts. For example: There's the concept of an elephant. It has relations to the concept of the color grey, to the concept of having ears, to the concept of being a mammal and several more. If you compare a real-life object to the concept of an elephant the object has to match all the relations or it won't be identified as an elephant. There are three problems with semantic webs: 1. You need to build a comprehensive database. Google is already working on it. Their bots scan the web to identify information posted on websites and inputs that into a database. 2. You need strategy to deal with incomplete, vague and contradicting information. What if an elephant is white (= is an albino)? What if the elephant misses an ear due to an attack of predators? Is this thing still an elephant? And what does "grey" means? If we define grey as that the RGBs values of a color are all equal, i. e. (128,128,128), does that mean that (1,1,1) is grey too? And what about (127,128,128)? 3. You need a ontology sto describe information and a solving engine to compare the database with a given set of data (i. e. the real-life elephant). OWL Full is the best and most complete there is. The problem is it can't be solved by computers. If you want to see a semantic web and an ontology in action, visit Google, search for Albert Einstein and look on the right handside. All the information about him in that box came from that. My conclusion is that there's still much to be done before we can build a true AI. There are all kinds of smart algorithms but nobody combined them in a single program. We also lack the hardware to run the AI. Also it's questionable if such an AI can develop a consciousness from that. And we only have a vague idea what intelligence and consciousness is. If there will be a singularity humans will be the cause because AIs are too dumb and will stay like that for quite while.

I know it's a bit very early to talk about it but I just stumpled upon this thought. Will KSP allow cross-platform multiplayer, i. e. a PC and a console guy playing together? Should KSP allow or prohibit it? What is your opinion?

This trickery will lead to weird behaviors and bugs. Sadly KSP wasn't designed for this.

"most people"? Don't forget that 99% of all users have no idea about computers. They just use them. And they only buy pre-built PCs which are advertised and those usually only have about 4 to 8 GB RAM. That's why I'm surprised that there are so much users here that have >8 GB memory. I guess only people which know a bit more about computers voted. They tend to have more powerful hardware.

Afaik there's nothing which allows that. KSP deletes every non-active craft which is in an atmosphere and below 20 km altitude because it assumes it'll crash. In theory you should be fine if you stay >20 km. You'll probably also need a satellite orbiting Jool to which you can switch before leaving the flight scene. Otherwise KSP might not allow you to switch to the space center if you are deep in an atmosphere.

Ah yes, I read it backwards How did you keep it pointing up?

8 GB Looking at the results so far I'm surprised that 16 GB seems to be very common. Edit: Steam hardware survey in july '15 (Source) Less than 512 MB 0.01% 512 Mb to 999 MB 0.17% 1 GB 1.68% 2 GB 8.65% 3 GB 12.27% 4 GB 21.48% 5 GB 1.33% 6 GB 5.73% 7 GB 2.56% 8 GB 31.07% 9 GB 0.07% 10 GB 0.31% 11 GB 0.14% 12 GB and higher 14.51% Most important RAM sizes marked by me.