TheAlmightyOS

Apologies for the extra work. I would reply to one and then another would pop up. I will be more mindful in the future.

Overall I find you have no clue how I am feeling. I am not upset. And I do not need to "Calm Down". I wanted to start a discussion. It's started Maybe I should go back and edit the first post to sound better? Text based communication is hard.... <quoted post snipped> EDIT: I typed the following in response to a post that has been deleted. Basicaly, he was very angry that he could not use programs like Nexus Mod Manager to apply mods to KSP. Wow, I did not expect an example to to fall into my lap but YES. Here we have your average end user. They are used to modding games with tools like the Nexas Mod Manager or the Steam Workshop. Now, to you all, I know this is not your concern. You make mods for you. You make them because you want to and you share them because you can (or, the other way around as it might be). And I am not asking you to be concerned with southernrock's plight. I am asking you to do what you always do, but let me in on it. Let me find a way to get mods to users like southrenrock while letting you guys do as you do. That is the end game everyone. Learn from the modders, create a system that works for the users. As I pointed out upthread, we got the start of something if we can combine those two projects. Southrenrock, thank you for your input. I have definitely been there. Check out the Community Mods and Plugins Library. Definitely helps until we can come up with a better solution. Also, many of the Authors here post to more than one location. If curse is down then there is a good bet the mod is hosted elsewhere. Check that Community Mods list. It has links to the mod thread on this forum and those will have all the up to date links from github, dropbox, mediafire, curse, kerbal stuff, google drive etc

I am sorry for any disrespect you may have taken from my posts. It most definitely was not implied. I would like to think the difference here is that I am not suggesting something that is "effective, easy, and simple", and instead asking the mod Authors themselves for a dialog about how they do things so we can possibly come up with something that works for you guys, not the other way around. I seriously want to "leave the modders alone" and find some way to interface with your processes and methods. I think I can do this because it is my job. I support developers. I get multiple projects to work together. and I see the potential here. I know we got off on the wrong foot but please gimme a chance guys. Question, what does OP stand for?

ok. This. Right here. Guys, this is what is happening to me. My communication skills are nill but I really want to help out here Last things and then I got to go for tonight 1) I know you guys know about this issue. I know this issue has been talked about. I still firmly believe that some communication about this issue backed up with action in a few of the community projects could go a long way. 2) I do not want to change what the Authors do. I do not want to change how they post. I do not want to change their host. I want to, well, learn from them. Learn what they like about the current set up. Learn what they do not like. find solutions for everyone 3) I know I have pissed off most of you in my various threads but I really do not want to be the enemy. I am just a good guy who see's a problem and wants to fix it. I want to be your friend. Hell, I eventually want to mod KSP like I did Fallout:NV so I most definitely don't want to be on your guys bad side, alright? I just have a very difficult time communicating sometimes. So yeah. I will answer all the rest in the morning. Just... please take a look at post #16. I think I might be on to something

*This is my apology to the entire thread for using CAPS. I tend to use them for emphasis. It was not meant to taken as shouting. I am sorry and I will remove all caps from my posts when I get a chance. Thank you*

If you actually read what I am trying to do, you would see my end goal is TO LEAVE MODDERS ALONE. I just need some input from you all. I don't want to change you. I want to talk to you. Understand what you do. That was the point of the "Why do you make mods?" question. It was not to make a point about users getting your mod. I want to understand, so we can come up with solutions. Maybe YOU have an issue with something. Maybe there is a solution that makes things easier on you AND helps getting the mods to the users. Don't know if we don't talk about it.

I perceived his post as hostile and.... You know what? I have had a long day. Lets cut to the chase You guys HATE me. You guys HATE every single person who walks in here and says "OMG This is screwed up!". I don't know WHY you guys don't like us. Is it that you don't want to find solutions. I don't know. But I like you guys (apart from the posts where you try to rip me a new one). Your mods are fantastic. Each and every one. I don't think a single mod author that has posted yet has not had their mod in my gamefolder. AND I WANT ONE THING: Some way that those mods can be easily found and browsed though, by those that enjoy KSP as much as you do. Was I pissed when I wrote the start of this thread? Yes. Should I have said some things differently? Always. And do I know there have been other threads about this? Yes, I am not a (complete) idiot. But I am jumping from thread to thread, from the community library to the mod manager discussion to the KerbalStuff thread. I see projects that, with some active discussion with you guys here, the big players, could get a massive boost. As always I started with my foot in my mouth. Let's start over shall we? Hello, I'm OS. Let's talk about KSP Modding and how to make it better.

OK. Every Author is different. You do so for the challenge and to make the game the way you want it. For you I can understand why you are resistant to some of the ideas mentioned here. First off, I am looking for solutions. Those solutions might not fit you. That does not mean I am going to force you to fit the solution. Secondly: There was an issue that was being discussed in another thread about the difficulties of creating a modification manager. I said that unless Squad enforces some sort of standardization that it would not work. I was only makeing a point. I do not want to take your choices away. That is not an option. This is just a glimmer of a spark of an idea, but.... http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/85989-Combining-efforts-on-proper-mod-management-framework-tools-platform http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/79745-0-24-2-KSP-AVC-Add-on-Version-Checker-Plugin-1-0-4-KSP-AVC-Online If we combine these two projects, it may be possible to create a mod manager without the mod authors doing anything asside from putting a .version file in their mod. As for what would be in that file that is another discussion and one I plan to have in the above threads. ferram4, I know you mentioned not liking the .version file and planning to remove it. If I may ask, could you (if you have not done so) post your issues in that thread so that it can be improved?

Removed. I do not agree. I believe the ability to mod the game will become easier over time, just as it does with any other game. However, playing devils advocate, lets say it doesn't and you have the same pool of modders. Now you have a MUCH larger audience. You have many more people posting the the forms, asking the same question about how to install your mod for the 300th time... The forum is great. For the mod authors. For the users it is very difficult to browse (notice I did not say SEARCH) Did I say there should be a single site for the authors in this post? Cause if I did messed up somewhere. I do not think that I agree on all counts. I am just trying to 1) Find and 2) Update mods. Find? Well, I suppose I could find your mods easily, or the mods listed in Community Library. Google is easy enough to use. But, and really think about this idea and not the retort you want to make: What if you don't know what you are looking for? What if you are browsing. Chatterer is a great example of this. It's a goofy little plugin that adds background jibberish. There is no flipping way I would have found that via search as I would never search for background noise. However it is one of my must have mods. Almost everyone is upset with the move curse. It is definitely ranked low on my list of modding communities. I am just trying to do what I can to fix what we got and to do that we need to talk. Just like we are talking now. Then how do I do it, hum? sit on my **** thumbs? Yeah, everyone has been talking about one way or another, mostly just cursing curse and then what? Nothing? You know what I am doing to get involved? Getting people talking TOGETHER. Working on solutions TOGETHER! Get ideas from the the authors themselves and try to work that into a usable solution. THAT is what I am doing. Now I want to work with you Tiberion! I want to work with Mr.Shifty. I want to work with ferram4 and everyone here! I am not here to fight you! I am here to work with you!

Ok. Let's try something different. Why do you make mods?

I did a face-palm when I realized these are two sides to the same coin: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/85989-Combining-efforts-on-proper-mod-management-framework-tools-platform Keks is attempting to create sort of a meta-repo. The basic idea is each mod would have this meta file uploaded to the repo, ether by the author or a maintainer. That meta file could be used in programs to browse, search, install and update mods. The current discussion in that thread is who would maintain the files. http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/79745-0-24-2-KSP-AVC-Add-on-Version-Checker-Plugin-1-0-4-KSP-AVC-Online An established plugin already, cybutek's KSP-AVC requires a *.version file be placed in the mod folder. If these two efforts were combined, if we expanded the *.version file to have more information then authors could post anywhere they wanted and the user could just browse the repo. That is ONE idea anyway. Lot's of different ways we can do this

I have some technical questions. Could you add additional fields to the .version file or is it a set standard you are using? When you create a version file could you also send it to a repo or catalog of mods? Basically, do you think it would be possible to merge your efforts with this: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/85989-Combining-efforts-on-proper-mod-management-framework-tools-platform

I do not expect 100% agreement, just a general "ok, that is a good idea, let's aim for that" People disagree all the time, but all cars have glove compartments and radios, and cig lighters/power adapters, right? No government forces car makers to have them but they all think it is a good idea First, thank you for your well thought out response 1) I suspect you are right. However, my fear is that, even with KS finished, the forum will be THE showcase and forum software, specifically vBulletin, is simply not designed for such a task. I believe if we do not start talking about these things now then when the time comes it will be too late. 2) Ah. I see. Makes sense with KSP being a pre-launch title. Still, we need to set a precedent for those that come next (month) 3) Hate to break it to you, but Minecraft Forums are hosted on Curseforge: http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums. That might be why it works like it does 4) I keep the community list of mods, maintained by nismobg, in my sig as a link. He does a great service. Me and a few others offered to help with his efforts but only he can edit the post. Thought about using an open document but doubted the users here would use it. 5) I have been an active participant in the community efforts. Not the one you posted but this one. The problem with this and others is scale-ability. KSP is a VERY modifiable game. When 1.0 hits I foresee a flood of mods and if we are not already using some form of standards it is going to be hell for the user. Ah, seems there is a bit of miss-communication here. I like options too. I don't want to tell you where to upload your mod. I don't want to tell you how to organize the directory structure. I do not care about the licensing you choose. I like the fact that you have options. I WANT YOU TO HAVE OPTIONS! But I also want to FIND YOUR MOD!! I am calling to attention the fact that Mods are hosted (Read: Displayed) everywhere. Mostly on a forum not suited for such a thing. Not telling you where to post your mod. But I would at least like to start a dialog about possible benefits for mod authors and mod users alike! Did you know a single file added to your mod could let everyone know when you update it? OF COURSE YOU DO! You already put a ".version" file in your mods that allows KSP-AVC to check for updates! But what if that ".version" file could do more? These are the things that should be talked about

You guys have already shot down my solutions. So you could say My solution is this thread. Communication.

As you can see by my original post below, I was very frustrated at the state of affairs in this modding community and what seemed like the mod authors complete lack of concern. But, being who and what I am, I did not communicate it in a very constructive way. Thus, I am rewriting this first post to more accurately describe what I am attempting to get out of this thread and in a (hopefully) much more agreeable manner. Everyone +dog comes in here and says what everyone already knows: The modding community has many shortcomings. However when they pitch their idea of a solution it is almost always "get the modder to do X". This is not my goal I want to start a dialog with the active mod Authors in the community. I want to know their processes. I want to know anything that could make their side of the coin smoother. And then, with that information, I want to find a solution that does not change what the mod Authors do at all, but how the community interacts with the finished product (mod) Lets talk I am keeping my original post for context of the posts that followed

Actually, unlike curse, Nexus was created by fans [citation included] to host their mods and turned into something bigger. It started much like Kerbal Stuff is starting with KSP right now. Curse, on the other hand, was a way to make money [citation included]. And as you can see, Nexus founder has no intention on going commercial. Now, that's not to say that I think we should SWITCH to Nexus. That would be very bad this late in the game. Just clearing up some misinformation. And back to what I was saying, Going from one mod host to another... that is the problem. This community is FRACTURED every which way. And right now almost every single modder out there uses THIS FORUM to showcase their work. A forum that, going from some people's sigs, had a catastrophic failure and lost data not too long ago. keks, I will be very honest with you. I like your idea very much. It could work. Just like all the other ideas out there. There are faws, such as how to scale such project. KSP is a very modifiable program and the devs are making it easy for modders so I foresee thousands of mods during KSP's life-cycle. How can a few individuals maintain a repo of meta-data for so many mods? Those sorts of things need to be worked out. I just deleted what was going to be a rant. I won't hijack your thread. Your working toward a solution so hats off. May the best fix win

If I may ask, is the reason for this decision due to technical limitation or more of design choice? Yes Sir

Oh how I wish it were so simple I use nexus for Fallout 3, Fallout NV, Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, The Witcher 2, DragonAge.... and it would work great with KSP to. But it would split this community even further. This community needs LESS options, not more. THAT is the reason we need things like a mod repo in the first place.

That's what I was thinking. Thanks

Ok. I am with ya so far. I still have a few issues with your plan but for the sake of frying bigger fish let's fast forward a bit In your plan, you have a client side tool that connects to multiple points (repo, all various download points) to keep the user updated and to install (search for?) mods. Why not take it just one step further... Make it a Mod Submitter/Installer/Updater tool! Someone mentioned offering the authors a carrot earlier and I can think of no bigger then a tool that uploads and updates their mods over multiple locations with a click of a button. The program would standardize the submission format, generate the info file and, basically, do all the leg work. All the Author would have to do is set up his or her account settings to the various web services when they first set up the app then add the updated information when they create a new mod. And then updates are a push button away.

Another stupid question. Tried to find the answer in this thread but the words I was using to find it were just too generic and ended up finding every other post. Example: I have the latest version (1.7.6) of Toolbar installed in my Gamedata folder. I want to install the latest version of Infernal Robotics (0.18.3) The Infernal Robotics package includes a 000_Toolbar folder that is identical in nearly every way to the one from the 1.7.6 Toolbar install with exception to the toolbar.dll file Do I overwrite the 1.7.6 toolbar.dll with the one provided by the Infernal Robotics mod or do I ignore the 000_Toolbar folder provided by Infernal robotics?

Your mod is awesome and I look foreward to your updates. A suggestion: Join this thread and 1) get exposure for your mod and 2) let all your fans know when you update!

Quick suggestion. I am looking at the redesign link for the index. I notice there is a Top Mods and and New Mods section and then two buttons to sort them as a grid or a list. May I suggest a button for "View All Mods"? in approximately the same area. Pressing the button would take the user to a category select screen. Also, could not find anywhere this was asked so I will ask it now: Will the mod author be able to upload more than one screenshot?

Ok. now that I understand what you want to do I have to say that I do not agree that this will work. Once again, not trying to be argumentative. There are three major flaws I can see with this Mod Authors will not do this Mod Authors post their mods to (at last count) 6+ different and district locations When you do have a team of dedicated maintainers checking everywhere +Mun for mods and uploading them into the repo, WHO is going to use said repo?! Like I said in #2, there are already 6+ locations to find mods. This repo would make 7 I don't want to fight you cause I know deep down we want the same thing. But in my opinion this would create more chaos, not reduce it. In my eyes, our only option (and yes, that is opinion again) is to fully back one of the currently used Mod hosts (my choice is Kerbal Stuff) and work on creating tools for devs/authors to produce standardized packages.

Sorry, that might be my work talking. I think in terms of tens of thousands of submissions, not KSP's current community of a couple hundred. So, I suppose you would be right that admin work would be trivial. However, I will say such a thing will not scale well (though it might not need too)