Dogoncrook

While it's true it's going to motivate a few people to go look up the info, a lot of people will bounce off right there, who knows how many but I'm sure it happens. The rest go get mechjeb. I'm not sure putting in an obscure way to obtain delta v is going to change anybody's experience. I'd like to see raster prop moniter be stock with the more advanced pods getting more mechjebian. It would really only work though with multiple versions of each pod type. This way, to see delta v you have to put it on the launch pad then go iva then navigate to the page. It removes some of the challenge in gaining delta v stats but you gain the ability to iva pilot which is a bit of a challenge on its own. If they do this though they need to put in replay capabilities as well so failures can be investigated. The downside to rpm and even mechjeb being stock though is it won't work on mod parts. It isn't really realistic for squad to update when a new mod comes out. There may be ways around that but, a mod version would still likely be needed.

I made an assumption I suppose, but what was the point of your statement of fact? If you believe my comment wasn't discussing anything than what's the point of yours? And then you go right on ahead and make the same assumption (that my comment was a complaint) that you attempt to call me out for. You also contradict yourself , you say your play style has changed, apparently so much you just had to come on here and post a single sentence on it. And yet you mention that the only thing that's changed is the parts you use your play style hasn't really been altered. I couldn't care less what you do with kerbal, if your comment wasn't complaint just say so, the condescending drivel you added wasn't necessary.

Well it isn't easier than an appropriate sized rocket to get in orbit. And the idea that you would complaign that you've imposed a boring playstyle on yourself is a bit rich. Did you use a mainsail on everything before? (Mainsail is still overkill for 10t)

Sure but who suffers through tweaking and nerve wracking piloting just because its more efficient technically, when they could easily just build an appropriate rocket that nearly flies itself? It isn't easier to use arm on a small payload. You have to worry about over building as much as under, especially in kerbal.

That high twr is what makes them a horrible choice for average payloads. What compels you to ignore all the other negative attributes of using an overpowered rocket and instead insist it's now the be all end all, it clearly isn't.

Try lithium. And on that note an argon, and lithium tank for small probes would be awesome. I've been building ion satellites and helperdrones with plasma engines like this (bottom to top) Plasma thruster Fission reactor+2 radial small radiators (not the foldout ones) generator Rcs tank Core Xenon tank Docking port Jr. Then various trinkets: Rcs etc. Mechjeb It makes small easy to tow probes that serve as satellites for scan sat, and others I put magnetic grapples from kas on the end to clean up orbital debris. They are perfect for this. You get around 7k dv for the mono which I use for long burns and 800 dv with xenon but at nearly double twr. I use that to quickly get back to orbital velocity after deorbiting junk, or for capture orbits. Anyways the bi fuel system works really well for me but on a large manned tug I use argon and lithium and get much better performance. It's already a struggle to make small non fusion probes viable, so it would be nice to have all the fuel choices available. Same for 1.25 sized rockets.

@mihara I'm using rpm 15 and mechjeb dev 222.

Since the new asteroids are already called potatoroids, I humbly suggest, if it's possible or within the scope of where your going with this, that they be modded into actual potatoes that can be mined and distilled, or for life support, but preferably both. Awesome work so far.

I have the dev version of mechjeb, and the latest rpm, using 0.23.5, and I get autopilot not loaded. Downloaded again and made sure all the files and folders are where they should be. I figure it won't work till mech is up to date, but it seems like your saying that it should work anyways? Here are the errors I get. Cannot finmodule "MechjebRPMVariables" Cannot find internal module "MechjebRPM" and then a bunch about mechjeb buttons. Edit: disregard the buttons part that's only happens in the alcore pod.

That would be fine if kerbal had decent performance with reasonable lifters but it doesn't. Until it's 64bit I'd rather have it take fewer parts and stages because I don't want a stuttering blurry mess. I build realistic rockets but before arm, every station I built would inevitably explode or become impossible to rotate because I had to build in much smaller chunks and use more docking ports. Building on the same scale I always have, kerbal finally has a performance level that isn't a flaw I'm putting up with because of how much I like the gameplay.

And they all may end up perfectly balanced and useful. Its pretty common during early accsess to put in a couple of representative options to flesh out the rest of the game and come back at the end to add the complete set of options. It isn't worth the trouble when the scope of the game and the mechanics are not decided upon, or implemented. Suggestions would still be relevant and useful, but passionate debate might be a bit premature is all I'm saying. I certainly underestimated the scope of the career mode judging by that comment, who knows what other pieces of the puzzle are missing. It's hard to say at this point what I would want. I'm ok with balancing, but I'm not sure at this point if I would rather have a nerf or a buff of the old engines. It's hard to tell when this could be all of them or if a dozen more are coming or if something like upgradable stats are in the works. It's possible the new engines reflect a design descision that has changed since the old ones were implemented. I mean.. alpha.

What I'm saying is we may be misinterpreting the scope of the game, what if they add a dozen or so redundant engines, ie similar versions from each manufacturer.

"Mike (Mu): *I’ve completely rewritten the contracts systems! The new version gives much more flexibility, moddability and a wider variety of interesting contracts. Plus the various manufacturing agencies have much more of an influence in how contracts are generated." I really don't think you can talk about balance without discussing career, but at any rate this whole debate seems wildly premature. Just my opinion but this discussion will probably be more productive after .24 drops. There was also talk of new animations, so who knows what's coming with .24 for all we know it could have new parts. If there is competition among manufacturers it's possible we will have many redundant parts added. I support this. Rock vs kerb. Yeah I want this.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/74625-0-23-Professor-Phineas-Kerbenstein-s-Wonderous-Vertical-Propulsion-Emporium-v0-14a Edit: and if you can believe it there is a steam/whale oil balance debate...

My phone will not allow this. It's the professor phineas kerbinstein Wonderous vertical propulsion emporium.

Rpm, interstellar, deadly reentry, far, mechjeb, scan sat, real whatever your flavor and an n body physics mod ( its coming) there you go. And you can do it all steampunk style with moonshine rockets should you choose. Honestly, we are spoiled for choice.

Well it isn't a hard thing to do if your budget is unlimited and it never will be. Honestly Im guessing when it comes to balance that's how it'll go. If they wanted you to min max rockets and make difficult choices they would tell you what the dv is no? They would probably also make all physical objects have mass, and as you stretch a strut it would weigh more, and you wouldn't be able to refire a mainsail, and you wouldn't be able to refuel. That's clearly not going to happen though, that isn't the gameplay they seem to be after. I'm not sure very many people want it either. I mean I played orbiter for years, when this came out, I never touched it again. And I'm a hardcore SIM fan. Turns out space simulation is boring. Kerbal is fun, it's a huge success, orbiter well.. you can't compare the two easily but if you do.. I get the impression a being that uses an above ground swimming pool as a rocket fuel tank couldn't care less what dv or isp even stands for. That to me is why kerbal is fun. It's pretty cool that before it's all said and done I can mod it into a SIM as complete and detailed as orbiter if I get the itch. And let's be honest here even if they needed everything and balanced, this game still wouldn't challenge you, you already know what you are doing. The fun at this point for me is actually in the doing. At this stage when I want a challenge, I stop doing caring about math, but to each his own, I'm glad this game is moddable though because it sounds like a lot of the vets are going to be disappointed in the final product. Thats kinda disappointing, even though I can see your points of view. Edit: I'm on my phone and that's a bit rambling, I apologize.

It's already one of the most challenging games around and that was never the goal. So let's turn that around again. If they buff all of the other engines but they are balanced could you live with it?

Aren't the new engines balanced by the fact they are a pain to maneuver? I mean before it wasn't like people were slapping mainsails on probes or satellites. Or put another way, with the rebalance mod do you now use them in orbit, or do you now use them as ssto's and such? Do you push their limits? It seems like putting a limit on something to prevent you from doing something you never were going to do in the first place. That said I might try the rebalance mod, but if it's as some of the people said a difference you won't even notice, should I bother if I'm using everything realistically anyways? That's a serious question, I like the idea of it but in practice if it's just correcting math in the background that I don't care about or look at, and if it's just making sure I don't exploit, well what's the point? I don't play that way anyways.

While troubleshooting an issue I noticed that everytime you switch to spaceport or vab, or tracking, in the debug menu something has a 50/50 chance of generating. I'm guessing it's an asteroid. Has anyone else seen this? I could of course be completely wrong.

Are you suggesting they accidentally overpowered the new engines?

@red Well if you leave these forums the opinion on kerbal seems entirely different. It's a too hard game that you should buy anyway because lol random, and a glorification of crazy slap some rockets on it and send it to the moon, hopefully it's chaos. That pretty much sums up the reviews as well. I guess at the end of the day I feel the game was designed in such a way that if your chasing numbers you are playing it in a way it's core isn't designed around. It's a different philosophy if you will. It's cool that you can do that, but I don't see the devs ever catering to that play style, and they have been vocal about that, so why not just mod to taste and be done with it? I mean we can all have our cake and eat it to here. If the challenges lack variety, that's a lack of imagination I've never seen displayed around here, so I think those fears are unfounded.

Fair enough. I can't unlearn what I know, so I would notice as well, but the question I have been asking myself is "if I had just bought this game would this alter my experience?" Honestly I don't know if I'd notice one way or the other. Can you honestly say you would? I guess if you always do the math you would, but I don't think most people do that. I've always assumed the math was withheld to encourage experimentation, and that in mind I think overpowered is far better than under. That said I'm pretty particular about how I play, I'm not even sure I'd notice something being overpowered unless it was grossly so, because if my lifter has extra fuel when it stages or if I have to throttle below 25% it gets a redesign. I meet that criteria with reasonable looking rockets so arm doesn't really bother me. As for challenges around here, I've never bothered, so I can't speak on that, but I have to ask, does arm actually effect those if everyone is on an even playing field? How does it change the nature of them? And since this is alpha, would you rather nerf these or have more options added to fill in the gaps?

You probably shouldn't Start. Actually, you should probably wrap it up. You are no longer suggesting anything or providing feedback, you are just insulting people.