AngelLestat

damm, you have all the brain wash with that thing called "space must be expensive".. is expensive.. but 11000 millions just few mirrors? come on... that thing has not excuse. All enginners (all categories with higher salary than those involve in the telescope) and arquitects and thousands of other high pay workers involve in the Burj does not count? Always the same story, "if nasa didn´t do it, must be impossible :P", "if cost so much for nasa should not cost less". Here is spacex doing all the things that nasa did not do in 45 years. Those impossible things at lower cost. I know that I will not persuade nobody, but evidence will keep comming, and this kind of projects will be taken by private companies more often.

ah let me clarify my last words a little bit with this example. James Webb Space Telescope.... I am waiting for this since centuries... the project planning begin in 1996!! It will be finish in 2018!! 22 years!!! with a final cost close to 11 billions!!! I know that some will jump saying "ahh.. but is not something easy to do... it requires many scientist and tests and bla bla bla.." Ok, but lets compare it, for the same cost we can have: Now somebody will said that the tallest building in the world it does not require new technology or techniques? That it was done before? In fact, if the Burj Khalifa has a fail.. it may kill thousands of people. The james space telescope is not even so big.. it can be launched with the Ariane5, the mass is just 6.4 tonnes. So yeah, if you ask me, all the money that big agencies receive, I would give it to private companies, so they fight between them to see who accomplish the objectives with the lower cost. Nasa and all other agencies, are just a way to drop money and spent time, without even big breakthroughs.

with all my respect to the topic, but I can't believe it have reached to the ninth page ! Well this show only one thing.. people lost his faith in NASA or any other agency, because they did almost nothing new in the last 45 years, the only one who is trying to change the thing around here is spacex.

Ok I tested one more time and it works fine, maybe I had a memory issue the last time.. not sure why because I dint have any other mod. Maybe other software running at the same time or long time without restarting the PC. Mod: I like the predictions and how easy is now to make spirals towards sun. The only thing that I dont like, is that it does not help to a newbie to understand the physsics behind solar sails, because it does all automatic and it does not show the right angles in the navball. For me is not as intuitive as it will be to work with a real modify maneuver node and a way to force the sail ship to rotate following the right angle. But there are also good things about your way. One advice, the angle thing is confusing.. There is not point to have angles beyond 45o degress, because even if you reduce your normal acceleration vector, you also reduce your prograde or retrograde vector, which does not help in nothing. I read about this some years back but I never understood it very well, I was not sure how they wanna accomplish all that. Now I read a new power point presentation that explain in more detail how it will works. Its seems solid, it deserve more attention and money for its research. For those who still never hear about it: http://www.rbsp.info/rbs/PAPER/STAIF02/index.html About how to include this to KSP.. mmm not sure.. that is a work for an expert moder. The current solar sail part used, due its acceleration force 1.3N, It should have 400meters X 400meters = 160000 m2 If we take that at 1au (kerbin distance from kerbol) we have 1360w/m2, then it give us: F = 2P/c --> 2*217600000/300000000 = 1.3N Of course KSP cant deal with such higher scales, so is all 1/10 --> 40m X 40m sail, the dimentions that seems to apply in the model part. But the mass is 1T, which it fix with the current mass of a real solar sail of 400m*400m using current solar sails materials as the Sunjammer, which is a density of 6g/m2 (including support structure) * 160000 = 1 metric tonne. It will be nice to have different solar sails technologies, this will provide different densities and max temperature parameters. Also it will be nice to include a Dusty Plasma Sails as you said, it will have a density of 0.01 g/m2 with a reflectivity of 1%, this increase just the particle effect scale, (as a magnetosphere), the model it will be like just a wire loop where the dust is injected to inflate the plasma. I dont know much about modding, but it represent some issues about graphics, cpu performance and how accurate you mimic the physsics. Maybe the solar wind effect can be avoid it.

Apo and Per now are almost equal... we know what it means. Few hours more. Today I saw it when pass over my city, but I dint film it. This guy did: ------------------------------------------ It seems that it fell and desintegrate over the pacific ocean... Somebody can confirm this?

Hi mrsolarsail.. First let me said that I support this in a 100%, I was waiting the right momement to make a request for a mod like this since long time. This was like a free wish. Second: thanks for a standalone app for solar sails. Third: thanks for try a new control trajectory special for sails. I could not test it very well, I am using the official KSP version updated without mods, only the solar sail mod.. After play a little bit with your controls. The game crash, maybe is a personal issue, I dont know yet. I already try this 3 times, always the same crash outcome. So still I dont understand very well the controls and your system. So sorry if I will suggest something that you already solve it in a simple way. The first time I try the interstellar solar sail (which I install only for solar sails), I was able to achieve planet encouters after hard but without enoght accuracy. Then I realized that the maneuver node it confuse much more than help. We need a special maneuver node for solar sails. Normal Solar Sails Those are the only directions in which we can accelarate, in a polar coordinate system, where the current amount set for each direction it counts as time at certain angle, showing the prediction orbit, after all corrections it will give us a maneuver marker on the navball, it will be nice an option to keep the sail pointing to the maneuver marker in time warp. We can add other maneuver nodes over the predictions. I imagine you already have the math to make orbit predictions, in case you dont, I can search it and attach the link, I saw it before. Is a formula that works in polar coordinates which has into account the time, angle, gravity , etc. Drawing the trajectory spiral in 3d. Tell me a little more about your system. You will notice that almost all solar sails post in this forum are mines XD Ok I see the info in the github

first point, you are right. But in prrevious quick read that I did, in some place mention other cases for the bone and muscle case, now I cant find them. I did some graphics so you understand what I mean by linear. This is my estimation without (exercise to avoid confusion), in case we add execise then I guess it may be "similar" function shape but adding a 20% to 30% muscle mass. From your comments, I am assuming that you think it will be similar to this: All the things we know about muscles disagree with this assumption. You mention that someone who does twice as exercise as you it will not have twice muscle increase, but it depends, if that guy is at equal muscle mass than you when it does, then yes, is possible. This happens because you are not taking the time into the equation. If we enter the time in the first graph it will give us a 3D function with a new cordenates showing how the graph change with time. That is where appears a concave shape in the function. Of course this takes only into account musscle increase/decrease, there are other factors that I am ignoring, at certain point the heart or arteries would not be able to stand high gravity levels, the same may happen with low gravity. Genetics limits or different organs issues may have something to said. You can mitigate the problem with exercise, maybe 2 hours a day, but that is a time resource than mars people needs to comply, is a drawback. Maybe if they dont plan to return to earth, with the help of some medicines they will be fine. But we still have the reproduction and children development issues, there is not enoght evidence but the concerns are many.

Nasa uses SI units, I dont see them getting booted I guess everyone needs to start encourage US citizen to start use SI units.. avoiding using imperial units (at least with this science related topics), is like keep pushing the inevitable. - - - Updated - - - Yeah, it seems so..

Right.

I also wonder before why it needs escape with the trunk, the aerodynamic reason seems like the only possible reason, but I dont see much point, dragon can land and change orientation just using its 8 engines. Maybe there is another reason behind.

Yeah, first it depends on the IA distintion, there are 2 ways to make an IA, one is mimic how our brain works and try to simul that or copy to the perfection the brain mechanism, and another way is finding an algorithm able to relate information, learn and reprograming until it reach such complexity to achieve self aware. The first way guide us to a linear developement easy to predict at least in the begining. The second is what we call a Hard IA, this moment in time is marked as the singularity, because is impossible to predict what would happen after, we can not be in the shoes of a super intelligence.. Basic psicology and human nature. For all the things that I mention before. There is not point to have babies anymore, there is not future for the human race after that.. you have future only when you have goals, wishes.. What you will teach to your sons? What is the reason to live? Why the IA creations "new AI" would be also benevolent with us? why they will need us? I am agree that it can not be stoped, but at least we need to try. Never was exponetial, always linear. -heh I use a lot of times the word linear to day.. weird. Quamtum computers may grow also linear.. not sure. But we can not be sure if it does not work with current technology because we still dont know the algorithm. But it depends on the approach that you take to make your IA. If you try to accomplish self aware, you will follow a path without limits or fixed structure or software. Some supercomputers simul 1% of the human brain, all its neurons and multiple interactions, but that way is like try to develope an IA by brute force.. without idea what are you doing, just trying to copy what neurons do in a very different way with bits. The brain work as an analogic machine, it works in base to chemichal responses, that is the way that evolution acomplish this. Is very efficient in power consumption, but it does not mean that is the only way. Many people believe that due this it will take us still 30 years to reach the power needed, some thinks that we already had the potential http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/computers-vs-brains/ But the true is that both make the wrong assumptions. How much memory we have? I would said less than 1gb, the most important is how that info is related and storage. I would explain how a computer may record things in a similar way. It learns by different stimulli to recoignize some objects/concepts, but is not a total BMP + wav file + smell file, etc. Is a pattern of different stimulli under certain rules and shape (which each attribute was record before in similar way). Once you have all those objects record, now you want to remember a moment. The moment just save the memory locations of each object in the scene, under some different rules. Then the brain generates and simulate in real time all the missing data. That is how something as complex as a whole movie + our feelings watching that movie can be saved with so low memory. When we try to force our brain to work in the binary way always fail, like try to remember 50 words. But people that are very good with memory, use techniques to relate each of those words with things he already knows under certain rules. Is all about how the info is related, what neurons conections become stronger or how they re arrange by it self. We dont need neurons or a similar process to accomplish the same thing, in the same way that cars does not need legs to move. So it depends on a very complex algorithm that we dont know how to make.. but once we achieve that, we have the procesor power of a computer with the magic method of the brain. That is the singularity.

Psicology fail, so you dont see any problem with the AI doing all the desicions, discoveries, explorations, technology, rules, for us? What is our purpose then? if we do not make a living, not need to fight, not need to survive, without goals or reason to live... We that feeling that our existince is now complete pointless. Why we should keep living? And all that in case the AI is benevolent, what if is not? we drop a coin and we find out? aghh.. is incredible how someone can think that this is a good thing.

There is something wrong with your assumptions 1greywind, also the ISP you use is very low and the deltav very high, there is not much difference in deltav with GTO vs Mars. Take a look to the Falcon heavy numbers: Falcon Heavy would be able to lift a surprising 53 tonnes to LEO, 19 tonnes to GTO, or 13.6 tonnes toward Mars. If we are talking of payloads lower than 1 tons, then is possible try aerobraking in mars, then in the venus case you dont have any problem with aerobraking.

I would like to know with certainty, sure. But we are discussing between us, not making a claim to the world, so estimations on base of the things we know are allow it. Is not different from the things mentioned here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effect_of_spaceflight_on_the_human_body#Loss_of_bone_and_muscle_mass Or here http://www.mainsgate.com/spacebio/general/resources/humansandspacebio.pdf (math and experimental data) http://www.nsbri.org/DISCOVERIES-FOR-SPACE-and-EARTH/The-Body-in-Space/ http://www.racetomars.ca/mars/article_effects.jsp None of those articles makes claim about any level of microgravity, they just talk about the problem of the body under lower levels of gravity than earth. We have more than that. As I said.. muscle and bone deterioration or improvement depends on the level of effort made. If you go to the gym and you work up very hard, you will gain bone and muscle mass, then if you stop that your bones and muscle deteriorate, if you stay in bed doing nothing, the deterioration is even worse (that is why nasa study this with people resting in beds). The effect is linear, all this result in dangerous calcification of soft tissues and potential kidney stone formation plus possible bone brakes and heart problems in case you want to counter this with hard workout. But how much increased? It does not said.. if the control test is 9.8%, it should said with exercise they lost only 5% (just to said a number).------------------------------------------------------ Also in case nobody notice.. My estimation is base on the safe margins levels base on astronauts on the iss that go back to earth, so my estimation times are applied for people which comeback to earth. I am not sure what is the safe level if your plan is to remain in mars your whole life. Also we dont know the effects on our organs or child developement. So what I said is: Is a problem impossible to solve? Not.. You can go to mars in gravity wheels and adjust the speed gradually when they go back to reduce the recovery time. We can have gravity concave habitats there in mars, as places to go exercise all days as people do in the ISS, that is more accurate than a heavy suit.

depending the payload you want to carry.. to jupiter or venus or mars. So you need to start from there, 100kg? 1 ton? 5 tons? 22 tons? Kibble are you sure of that? How much the falcon9 can carry to GEO?

That movie does a good job explaning the exponential knowledge grow that an AI may have, and how frightening that might be to our way of living.

Nobody saw the video that I post about Bill gates and Elon musk explanations? You all are very wrong in one thing, you think that this is a linear developement, is not. Computers already process information much more fast that we do, the only thing that we did not solve yet is the algorithm that learns and work as a human brain. Since we are babies, we look something and after many times we learn to recognize that object, we have few sensors (ears, nervous system "the one more complex for the brain that includes touch", eyes, nose). Right now binary software is very limited, but that will change very fast when quamtum computers arrive to the market. We had limit information access, a super computer would take few months to analize the whole internet and learn about it. An AI does not born with morals as the human does (imprented in its dna), we would have very very different learning process and enviroment. Imagine a self aware algorithm in a computer which is not connected to internet and only can share info using the monitor.. For the Ai it would take ages each interaction with the user, it would become bored super fast which it can turn into psychotic behavior. The truth is that WE HAVE NOT IDEA OF WHAT CAN HAPPENS, and it seems nobody cares.. Is just about the algorithm, once you solve that everything will change. Then contain or control that power is pointless, you lose. How can you contain something 1 billons times more intelligent than you? What is the human purpose after that? we are nothing.. even if does not kill us, our choices, discoveries, adventures are not important anymore.

so any branch of science may be allow it to make predictions but not medicine? They did not said the exact amount of health deterioration that it will get, they just said that it will be important. But it seems that you think the gravity problem is a exponential one.. with an asymptote that increase a lot when it reach zero. The function in many of the consequences is linear. For example muscle, bone and heart deterioration; what matters most is the amout of effort you do, if you support 80kg at all moment you are fine.. if you support the half, you will have a big muscle deterioration, only 20 kg, more... and 0kg is like do nothing.. be lazy.. Is not 1000 times worst.. is linear. The medics know very well the effects of low gravity, also know very well the risks of each one of those and many other deteriorations. it does not said how much exercise mitigate that.. it said something about 9.8% and P>0.01.. but not idea what those numbers means (maybe something with the normal distribution curve) Of course training helps, because you are breaking muscle fibers, then new ones grow. But in the ISS astronauts always do exercise, but never is enoght.

I consider 3 biggest threat that the humanity needs to face. 1) Global Warming. I think we can deal with this, it will cost us many loses but eventually we can revert it. 2) Overpopulation More people equals to more problems, because lets face it, we are the root of all problems. 3) AI I think we would lose this one, it can not be avoided or stoped, somebody would develope this sooner or later. This threat is not always equal to robots vs humans in a war... but it can be (we dont know nothing about AI psicology) The threat may be more probably as the last of human purpose, which follow extintion, because we lost our drive that keeps us going forward. Here there is Bill Gates and Elon Musk explaning why this is so important: Please watch until the end..

0.38g, and yes we know.. we cant said with enoght certainty, but we can aproximate a number. Medics know very well how the body works. They can predict many things, some are mentioned in the links.

I have the feeling that if complete its development, it will be used only 3 to 5 times before another big launcher remplace it. Wasting a lot of money in developement.

Nice theory.

This discussion is deriving in something more complex as full terraforming. Of course if we wanna produce that amount of oxygen we would need the help of plants. For that we still need great amounts of water and nitrogen(that can be your buffer), plus start with a heavy greenhouse effect using methane or other components. There are many methods in literature of how it may be possible to achieve this with the low energy comsumption (which is still very far from our reach). But... mars gravity is still a problem. Our body is designed to 1g, no animal in the earth was exposed to any different force field over its evolution. Experiments on animal reproduction in the ISS are all discouraging, death or fails are a common outcome. This may be even worst on mammals due how sensitive the method is, but more data is needed. Bones fall prey to a kind of space-flight-induced osteoporosis. And because 99 percent of our body’s calcium is stored in the skeleton, as it wastes away, that calcium finds its way into the bloodstream, causing yet more problems from constipation to renal stones to psychotic depression. All muscles including the heart had similar deterioration. Red blood cell counts also fall, plus other effects mentioned in the links. http://www.medicaldaily.com/life-mars-how-caustic-dust-atmospheric-pressure-and-low-gravity-may-alter-human-body-320170 http://www.wired.com/2014/02/happens-body-mars/ How much would affect us in comparison to the ISS, hard to know, maybe we can stand more than 3 to 10 times the safety exposure time we accomplish in the ISS, this gives us from 3 to 10 years. But this for sure would be harder for children development or reproduction. We can use an spinning habitat with a concave shape like the one I draw for the moon (but with different shape adjusted to mars gravity), that might help but increase the complexity of the colonization.

We can see how the Supersonic Retro-Propulsion paint all the rocket fuselage with soot, we can see the contrast with the part shielded by the legs. Also is weird how start blacks, then white and then black again. Something related to the flame for sure.

you can do that for sure.. but what is the point? To make a rocket you still need thousands of other parts and materials, some as complex like electronics. But well, lets said that you build your rocket.. whats next? What benefics you get? You cant live on the moon or have children there, or train people to space missions.. Your explorers or scientist will still come from earth. And you are wasting the same fuel doing it this way.. Maybe for unmanned missions could work. But you need a perfect 3d printing machine on the moon able to do anything, which reminds me the von neumann probes, something that we are very far to accomplish. In the case we can accomplish that then leave the earth will be so easy that it will be not benefic for a moon factory.