AngelLestat

I dint make any calculation, but I guess as macollo said, that is notice in the extra payload that you can launch. Higher altitude + equator I assume a 4% to 7% extra payload mass. But the problems to deal with third world countries (which may change agreements once over time) and all the transportation and location of the personal, not worth it, even if you have a full reusable rocket that go backs to your mountain. Another place may be Mount Kenya in afrika, 5500 mts over the equator. But just as a mental exercise, the cons are huge. But well, ESA seems that it will use a similar location for its capsule test.

who cares about that rock.

But stock KSP "aerodynamics" if you compare it with FAR - RSS, you will see that in KSP stock you lost more deltav at launch in % to your final orbit speed than in FAR - RSS. So the small scales on kerbin / duna with stock aerodynamics in fact reduce even more (comparing scales in %) the drag brake distance. Also the only way to get close a bit more to reality is using FAR-RSS-DeathlyReentry-RealChute in Mars with 100 ton reentry and try to brake it with all kind of aerodynamics devices and just spending 500m/s in proppelent as you said. First thing to notice the Deathly reentry config, to check if the default value is not an easy starting value. Second, try to fulfill the safety NASA margins, is not the same claim that it can be done when we reach 10g, temperatures close to the limit and without accomplish our final orbit with the precision needed. Use trajectories mod as a help for the last one. Far is now supported.

Great video, I notice that the red baron airplane had a lot more interference in the stadium, this of course was due all the other RC planes out there. But the gimballed camera quadrotor had no issues with interference. I bet it use higher frequencies.

@KerikBalm Are you saying that landing in stock duna is harder than mars?? Try RSS with FAR and deathly reentry, not sure if the atmosphere parameters match or not, but that at least would be a bit closer to reality. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am agree with Nuke. I wonder if we can sent a wing shape capsule (dreamchasser style) and try to use a different kind of surface control (I know they dont work at those speeds) or rockets to control the angle and remain in the atmosphere until we brake enoght. If we just protect the botton part of the craft, then if we bounce too much from the atmosphere and we need to go back, we rotate 180 degress and we point our nose to ground, so the surface towards the wind is the same.. Not matter if we try to gain height or if we try to lower it.

There is no chance to be entangle between them, they are separate by 2000 mts all the time, one towards left up to 700 mts, the other towards right, down to -700 mts. Also these things are very acurate in their maneuvers and I believe that never gets tangle by it self. There is a company called kitegen which is developing a carrusel shape with lots of kites all flying very high and close. And I dont said that are not get entangle just to said.. This things are designed to not be tangle, they fall to the water and rise again, in the beach there are lots of people with kitesails and I never see any problem. You cant counter the pole drift with a chute, you can only brake your circulation over venus, which the days and nights would be longer. That was my first idea 1 year back, to get energy using your propellers as generator. But well, I understand that this venus kite case is not easy to see, sometimes is even hard for me, even when I draw the pictures and I understand the sail physsics because I had a sailboat before. In addiction, this concept is super new, I invented In fact, I realize that as we increase speed, you need to increase the starboard and larboard angle to harvester the new aparent winds due your speed. With winds of 7 m/s in the altitude gradient, then you can achieve 6 times that speed. Of course you will need to compress the pressure inside the blimp due the lower pressure in the surface by bernully effect. I find that you might be able to flight an airplane without engines active just using the kites (in this case wing solid kites, but in the same configuration) because you achieve 150 to 200 kmh. This effect not only work to counter by a lot the pole drift, it also works to generate electrical power with your propellers. But that is too much information by now.. Let me explain the basic.. Sail basic principles: Sails are very similar to wings, you get propulsion by drag and by lift (Bernoulli effect). The keel of the sailboat is key to counter the drift due all the wind directions less from behind. That is why I chose to use 2 kites, because with only one kite it would have just a 10 or 20 % of efficiency, and you can not use the blimp fins, they need to be huge to counter drift, in this case keels works on water so is not needed to be so big. In our case, we have 2 kites, one counters the drift than the other, that is what makes this so powerful. A sailboat can achieve speeds more faster than the winds speeds. This is due the apparent wind. The maximun speed it will depend on the drag and the lower angle that can achieve traveling upwind. Mostly all sailboats has 35 degres, but special sailboats achieve 20 degress and even 10 degress with ice boats. 10 degress means that you can achieve 6 times the wind speed. Some of them is called it "SAIL ROCKET". Something that I dint notice before, is that it has certain resemble with my 2 kites configuration: This is how this sail rocket works: If you see careful, the keel and sail angle, is the same that my 2 kites. But in my case, the second kite produce also propulsion without drag and zero drift. Also in the case of kites, they are not delicates, a 40m2 kite can produce 1 MW. Here a video that show also speed with kites, insane guy at 5:12 http://youtu.be/u_9wq7lDWvk?t=4m24s Returning to the venus sailing case: As you see, we can explain sail vehicles in earth with 2d vectors (mostly). But in venus we need to do the same with 3d vectors and 2 different wind direction depending altitude. So each travel direction that I think off, it takes me several minutes to understand what is the best position for both kites. Because is not enoght to just take a look at the wind direction, you need to take a look to the apparent wind once you gain speed. So new possibilities arise due the change of winds. Controling the height, both angles and pattern of each kite, you can go in almost any direction. Even up and down until certain height (but we also lose wind speed gradient if we move away 50km) Tomorrow I will make 3D pictures of the kite configuration and the forces involve. So it will be easy to understand. There is already graphene oxide covers that we may use in case is needed. They block 100% any hydrogen molecule. Right now is still in testing, but in 5 years will be ready a good cost. But I am agree. The Met/Lox seems a lot much simple. Someone can calculate the amount of hydrogen needed to made Met/lox? To see if worth to extract the hydrogen in venus, or if can be carry from earth. Only one is under the blimp, the other is full of hydrogen so never will go down at least you recover it. The acid is not a big issue, not sure if the kite materials is already acid proff. But in case is not, then you can protect them with any acid cover. If you see the acid test that NASA did for this mission, was not to see if the covers succumb to acids. It was to see if the covers with the time change color which may reduce the solar panels efficiency. Thats all. check the CO case, I guess I read something similar long time ago. But I dont remember.

As PakledHostage said, parachutes is kinda derail of topic. But let me clarify that. Curiosity parachute was huge, now nasa is testing with a parachute twice that size (not to lands humans) to land the next heavy missions. That parachute does not enter in any wind tunnel. So testing is more expensive. This parachute will be enoght to 5 tons or a little more maybe. But the weight, size and complexity of a parachute to 50 tons is not possible with current technology. In fact it will take so much time to open that will crash before it ends. But I mistake in one thing with supersonic retro propulsion. You can do both, aerobraking and retro propulsion at the same time. The last plan that is mentioned in the documentary "man on mars - mission to the red planet 2014" , it said that you can use your rocket height entering in side way (not retrograde) to drag and brake meanwhile you use supersonic retro propulsion to keep your atmosphere altitude. Of course that burn normal to the planet is not efficient as in retrograde, but this combination is better than full retro propulsion. The problem with aerocapture, is that is not so easy to calculate like in earth or venus, in these planets you can do it and you can have a final apoapsys of 500 km or 550 km. In mars is very easy to end crashing or with escape trajectory after cross the atmosphere. Because the layer that can decelerate you enoght is so thin that few meters down or up can be very significant to your final orbit. Hannu: we are talking of brake things without breaking them and with precision.

You are all missing a big point. Mars atmosphere is only a 0,6% our atmosphere. It may be enoght to brake things no more than 1 ton. But beyond that is not enoght. This is due the relation between volume, surface and mass. Volume grows exponentially with the mass, meanwhile surface remains almost the same. Not even with the new inflatable heat shields, they should be many times bigger than our current prototypes. That is not the only issue, parachutes does not work with higher mass than 2 tons either. A manned mission needs modules from 50 to 150 tons in the surface. The only way is doing a supersonic retro propulsion, and if you do that, then you dont have time to combine with another aerobraking technique.

Heh, is so hard to imagine because it does not work like that You have the notion that the only way to go back in time is by reverse you own acts in first person until you reach the point on your life that you want.. Something like "Groundhog Day" or "butterfly effect" but without being able to change nothing. And you can not go back in time before you born. Yeah, that has nothing to do with the universe as a block or the fixed time theory as is called here. So check your source to see if you are talking about the same thing. There are only 2 possible theories to time travel inside physsics. -One is the universe as a block, which is derived from general relativity, you can go back to the pass in any point of the universe just in the same way you cross the street, you move to other place (4d point) in the universe. -the other is a different universe and time line for each time you go back in time (or something like that) which is rerived from quamtum physsics. I am bad explaning this, see if someone else share your opinion or ask to @K2, he will be able to explain this a lot better than me. I guess he is advocate of the multiverse time travel theory. But he must understand both for sure.

ok gpsic, lets forget if time travel is possible or not,. Right now nobody can affirm or denied nothing. I personally think that is not, so lets continue. I still miss your point about the VCR tape... You think that because is fixed then the universe is a VCR and the only way to go back is in first person watching all your pass actions pass until you reach the point you want? Why you think that? We can think in the universe as a 4d block, time only exist inside the universe. But our universe is like a brane in the bulk, the bulk has its own time flow. So if we can travel across the bulk, then we can see our brane and enter in any point of that brane (4d point, time and space). So I dont know where your VCR concept appears.

Thanks that is a good news. This remind me that today in gizmag was an article about that researchers from MIT found the laws of superconductivity. Maybe not from a math proven theory, more from making the equations depending what they see.. But the equation which they have now, predicts with perfections all the superconductors which we know so far. Well I was looking into all the material they have.. wow.. I wish to live for always to learn all that. I will start with something about aerodynamics.

I still dont get your point gpisic.. what this has to do with the "paradox" that you want to show or the flaw with the hittler example? Is clear that this guy that is traveling back to the pass does not know that he can not change the past. Or maybe he knows and he do it anyway. Or the terminator case, when john connor´s soldier becomes john´s father.

Here some good dates to launch the manned mission according to our ISRU mission perspective: --Earth------------Destination---------Destination----------Earth------------Stay---------Mission------Injection Departure-----------Arrival------------Departure----------Return-----------Time--------Duration-----ÃŽâ€V(km/s) Nov-10-2021-----Mar-02-2022-------Jun-25-2023------Sep-29-2023------1.31 yrs------1.88 yrs------3.99 Jun-09-2023------Oct-15-2023-------Jan-21-2025------Apr-27-2025------1.27 yrs------1.88 yrs------3.71 2021: E-V-Transfer= 112 days---V-E-Transfer= 96 days 2023: E-V-Transfer= 128-day----V-E-Transfer= 112 days Roughly deltaV requirements: ISP: 440 lh2-lox Total mission mass to LEO: 135 Tons. I miss something? ELO to Venus aerobraking: 3.6 km/s 2 Blimp-ISRU-Rockets (include food): 30 tons * 2 = 60 Tons + propellent/engine 27 tons = 90 tons at LEO 1 Transfer Vehicle (dry mass: 30Tons): Food-water 1.5 tons + propellent/engine 15 tons = 45 tons at LEO VLO to Earth Aerobraking: 3.4 km/s 1 Transfer Vehicle (dry mass: 20 tons): Food-water 1 ton + propellent 9.5 tons = 30 tons. Ok we still need to find a new design for the ISRU blimp.. It needs ample variable buoyancy while maintaining good aerodynamics and fit inside the farings. Not easy. I know how to implement all the kite mechanism, ISRU systems and energy fuel cell managment cycle. But not so sure how to acomplish the new blimp design. Tips and critics accepted. Why it would be wasted? Knowledge never is wasted. All the money they put in mars mission research was of great help and it will be used for a mars mission or for this mission. Tell me one thing that it will be waste it.. In case you said Orion? Orion is kinda a waste of money because it does not work for mars. In fact may work as transfer vehicle to venus (in case they dont want design something better for that purposee), but not for mars. In the same mars documentary, they ask: Why we design orion if does not have any clear objective or location to be used. ANd the same people involve said: we dont have any idea!! It was just a goberment trick to keep busy all mars lovers. A venus mission may help to design and perform a mars mission in the short term. You came with all kind of psychological reasoning to day So venus evangelist... heh, Ok I take it. But just allow me to point some difference with respect that distinction. Evangelist is a word which source is religion, and often religion is synonymous of conservatives or opposed to change. I am quite the opossite. I can show you plenty of reply post that I did in which after discuss over many pages, I realize due logic, or evidence than I am wrong, and it takes me just 1 minute recognize my mistake or embrace the new concept. But is true, there are many things that I like from Venus; like airships, floating cities, sailboats (that is were the kite idea comes from), etc. Aha.. But there is the question... Humanity seems to looks mars as something familiar to them. But what they see? Only an image.. Is only one sense from the five. What is this thing we call home? only the visual image of our world? Or the pressure that keep us alive, the confort temperature to which we are used, or that strong force which never left us since we born? The sound, taste and smell which can not be the same in such mars pressure. In venus we have an sky and clouds; we need to ignore all our others senses to feel us like in home? But I guess is not a question about if we can find another place to live or build our home... Yes we have plenty of space here at earth, but the resources are limited. Also all those virgin habitats are taken by other species. What is their place if we keep expanding in this world? For sure. Also let me add that I read "many years ago" the Kim Stanley´s trilogy about mars, just to mention that I was quite into mars before read the Landis paper.

the benefic with ILS (or similar system) is that you remove complexity from the rocket, you may have plenty of sensors close to the landing site, traking the rocket and sending just the correction needed. For example if you need to include all different sensors in a rocket, you need track the wind speed, exact position, fast procesors, etc. When the rocket already has to deal with enoght hard conditions and control systems.

I am not sure what kind of guiding system it uses now. But they have plenty to choose. GPS, radar, infrared, ILS (or something similar to transmit from base to the rocket the corrections needed), laser, etc. Or maybe the tranking system is optimal but they lack on precision from the rocket control systems. EDIT: or the algorithm is wrong... Is time to copy the mechjeb code!

I think time travel is not possible.. but in case it is.. I dont see nothing wrong with the time fixed theory.. The universe as a block. Not sure what are you trying to said.. But why you need to go back in time as like pressing "reverse" in a vcr tape? Why you can not go back in time by a wormhole or any other system?

I find Nerva engines only usefull as an interplanetary cargo ship always working close to 0g with fuel rechargeable. So you can stop in the moon or any asteroid to fill your tank (I guess water is the best) and keep going.

I am not sure if time traveling is possible, in case it is I think we have two possibilities: 1-Each time that someone goes back in time, we do it in an alternative universe as you explain. Which is used is Source Code, star treek, etc 2-The einstein block theory. The universe is a block which pass, present, and future always exists and existed. Which is used in Terminator 1, interstellar, twelve Monkeys, etc. There is a third type that is explained here.. But you end with a paradox which is nosense. Like in "back to the future" movie. If I have to choose.. I prefer the fixed time theory derived from einstein laws. The multiverse new time lines, I find it hard to imagine of how that might happen. I believe in multiverses, but not that you create a whole universe just because you go back in time.

then you just need 40 to 50 extra tons to sent 100 tons to venus. I still dont see that number of SLS. As I said, maybe they need the fairing space more than the payload limit of each launcher. You need to sent 150 or 200 tons to Venus, this is 250 or 300 tons to LEO. Also we are working here to reduce that number to almost half, and at the same time improve the mission value.

So I enter to just talk about this? It seems very selfish. Besides the few other forums related to space or physsics that I know, have almost the same average of Professional, Engineers and Physicists than KSP. There are capable people here, the problem is that not everyone has venus in the map yet.. That might change with the years. By the moment I am not complaint, is very easy come out with original ideas on Venus devices when there is so few people in the world thinking about it. In case I wanna discuss this with people related to the topic, I can contact to some of the guys/girls which work in this project. In fact my idea is to improve and check some of the new concepts that we are talking about. If they appear consistent, I can make a PDF with the names involved and sent it to Langley. Maybe they can find something useful.. or not. But you are answering your self, if the payload sent it to venus are not bigger than 100 tons blimp with rocket + 50 or 100 tons transfer vehicle. So maximun 200 tons, and you said that we need 10 SLS? The pictures that you see are 8 Falcon Heavy (which may be reusable by that time) and 2 SLS. And I guess they needed more for the space inside the farings than for the mass to LEO. -------------------------------------------------------------- A better understanding of the kite propulsion in Venus and how to use the high wind gradient at the altitude of study. Which is more than 50m/s in just 5 km The kites may be very small, sailboats get good speeds despite water drag due boat and keel displacement. The blimp almost has no drag compare to a boat. That is why they can reach 150 knots. A 30 m2 kite, has a power of 1MW at 10m/s (at 2000 mts low dense atmosphere). We know that the concept propeller has few KW of power. One thing that I could not draw in these perspectives is the Kite flight pattern with sinusoidally shape, projected in 40 degress forwards our speed vector. Similar to this: http://s20.postimg.org/dfp44f81p/10_590x340.jpg The mechanism of each kite depends on 2 very light engines (one for each rope) which work to guide the kite, the side-slip manuver, and to retract the kite. The side-slip manuver just release 1 rope of the two, and the kite does not produce more drag or forces, this work in case you wanna retract without force the engines, or to avoid possible turbulances. The kites also automatic release both cables when the force exceeds some standards (as a Reel from a fishing rod), in case this continue, the side-slip manuver and the retract the cable to lower altitude gradient.

Two civilizations may comunicate and learn a common language (or decode their language) using math, science knowledge and logic. Is explained in Carl Sagan Book´s "Contact"

Crop circles are all made by men, some times by the same farmer, some others by "artist" intruders. The only real circles that are not men-made are the fairy circles in afrika, of course this does not count as crops. http://www.technologyreview.com/sites/default/files/images/Fairy%20circles.png There still some doubts about the explanation about why this happens. Some said that are termites which eat some plants, this provide a water reservoir for them, which is also used by plants on side. Without these water reservoir would not be enoght water for nobody. The second explanation it depends on complex math algorithms that explain how these circles may be created just by plants-water relations.

wow those are good news I will call that sucessful from my kerbal point of view.

uff, I dont know how elon musk resist this pressure in each launch. Well mission sucessful, now we need to wait to hear something about the first stage.

Yeah, snif, I guess this happens when the real cause to finance this project, is to steal money. Hey, you have 1 post more than me now :S http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tronador_%28rocket%29